Now avaliable on my website

Dendrobates care sheet - TREE FROG WORLD

__________________

Feedback if you dont mind.

Please read it as trying to help not b*tching!
I just see that darts are becoming more popular, and want to see them being looked after properly as i've already been given 2 groups handed into a pet shop because the owner couldnt care for them properly.

Lots of typos, spelling, punctuation etc. For example: broomlaids. Dendrobates are a priced species. (I know mine isnt perfect by any stretch!)
You have put about a water feature- really not essential and often more hassle than its worth.

Never personally known of impaction in darts- heard lizard keeper etc go on about it, but I keep most of my darts on leca covered in leaf litter, but also keep and breed several species as small as mantella and as big as tincs on bark chipping. Lots of my tanks have living moss, but myself and other keepers also use loose sphag' moss.

You put UV as essential. Again, a long standing discussion. None of my frogs get proper UV as tubes external so blocked by the glass. Plants benefit from it, but dont know if there is conclusive results to say if it is benefit from it or not. Dusting flies etc is the common way of getting vit's into them.

You've put a number of feeder insects per frog- this kinda depends on the species, but maybe would have been easier to put something like 'so all the food is consumed within 'x' amount of time, within a day or similar.

Your bit about cleaning. A properly setup viv with cleaner species etc will clean itself to a certain degree. The plants and cleaner species consume the frog poo, dead feeders etc. Daily spot cleaning would stress the frogs.
Moulding is part of the natural cycle. Ideally build the tank, and let it cycle / grow for several months before adding frogs.

I'll try to post a pic of one of my vivs tomorrow- apart from the front glass, it hasnt been cleaned in 9years (someone else had it before me as well!).

__________________

Hi

Thanks for the feed back.

All the care sheets on my site are constructed of my own experiences. this one however did have some input from some very respected people in the frog world.

american research shows that U.V of some degree is essential to dart frogs, i will happily find you out the paper so that you can read it.

I never said that a water feature was essential i said it would be a good idea.

The reference to feeding amounts was information provided to me by a top EU breeder and i did also state that it may vary depending on size of the frog and the size of the food.

I do agree a properly constructed viv will help clean its self but i would, and have never left it all down to that. Hygiene is a very important part of keeping amphibians healthy and i would never advice any thing other than what i have stated. sorry.

Again i agree that bark is pretty low risk to darts but again due to my personal experiences would never recommend it.

I know there are some typos and spelling errors, BUT the site is under constant maintenance and they WILL be corrected.

Sorry you did not like the care sheet i cant please every one.

Dave

__________________

Dave, was not dislike- as said was feedback. EG- to try an help each other.

Nearly didnt reply as people often read feedback incorrectly on forums etc.

I'm far from an expert or perfect, and believe all good keeper should constantly be learning from each other.

My comments were only to try and help. For example. 15 melanogaster is quite a different amount that 35 hydei. See where I was coming from?

Would love to see the UV paper. I'm working with an exotics vet up here (mainly with milk frogs, but also darts), and have recently been visiting a friend behind the scenes at a BIAZA zoo where he will soon be starting experiments with rearing dendros- eg water changes or not, UV or not etc.

__________________

I did not take it as a negative, i just assumed you did not like it.

Yes i do agree that even us good keepers can still learn from each other but you provided no evidence to support your claims, just pointed out what was wrong.

the sheet is being updated today to clear all typos and spelling mistakes so that issue will be sorted.

Once i have scanned in the paper i will pm it to you and will also add it to the site, linked directly from the statement.

__________________

Hi guys,i am new to the forums and am currantly learning as much as possible about pdf"s[building my own vivs growing loads of plant for vivs will be setting up a dart frog breeding room] and hopefully have some frogs next summer when every thing is set up properly.You both obviously have lots of experience with darts,so could i pick your brains Knighty you say darts need lots of space could you please be more specific:i have been told that the tincs need quite a small viv so that the required density of food is maintained. I am building vivs of 60cm cube to the ent/rana design in which i hope to keep breeding groups of 5 auratus/leucs what are your opinions. What size for the tincs.[my plan is for male high trios because of the girls beating each other up], also what morphs of tinc and auratus can be found in the uk.Thanks both in advance, i have also placed a thread in the habitat forum would you be kind enough to take a look.I have a million questions but this is enough for now thanks again regards Stu and Shaz

I think what would benefit the care sheet would be a setup by step guild to setting up a dart frog viv, This would be a simple photos or diagrams

What I would consider a dart frog viv is something like this:

Aquarium\vivariums with 90% glass cover

LECA - Weed blocker - eco earth\ coco fibre with a small partition with water for the frogs and drainage. About 50% viv covered with live plants. You could suggest good plants for the vivariums which are commonly available.

For substrate I use sphagnum moss\ bark chips. I can’t see impactions being problems as have are quite precise when feeding.


As far as cleaning the only thing I do is drain some of the water and use that to feed my houseplants as it’s full of nutrients. I don’t know any PDF keepers that clean the viv like you would do for FBT or Whites…

In the last 10 years PDF’s have defiantly become more popular hence there have been more people breeding them which made them much more affordable. This in turn will end up with the frogs in the wrong hands!

hope this helps.

I am currently working on a vivarium set up guide for the web site and will put a link on the cares sheet.

__________________

Hi, I don't come in here much so don't really know you lot! Not that I post much anyway... but anyway, I have kept and bred pdfs - mostly thumbs - for a quite while.

I want to say that I do agree with FrogNick and Chrism.

Light: I use daylight spectrum fluorescent tubes, through glass. Some UV will get in but not an enormous amount. I have, however, raised froglets to healthy adults in transparent plastic tubs that received only ambient light from a window. They did get D3 supplements.

Cleaning: I have, quite literally, never cleaned out a frog tank, except when stripping out an old tank to make fresh for new frogs. I do two things that are relevant here though:
1. There is a drain, and an automatic misting system which comes on for a minute every day, so there is a very small throughflow of water.
2. I have some wood in there which I know will rot down gradually (i.e. not cork bark, though there is some of that too), and this supports a large, population of all the little animals that live in rotting wood, like mites, springtails etc, and these will help keep the tank clean as well. So there is basically a self-maintaining ecosystem in there and I have done nothing to maintain it except make sure the water reservoir isn't empty and put fruit flies in (my longest-running setup ran for 5 years with just that). The advantage of this is that it supplies lots of supplementary food for the frogs. They seem to prefer the tiny mites and springtails to fruit flies.

Impaction: I have never heard of it in pdfs, and I've kept them on many different substrates with no difficulties.

The trouble with caresheets is that there are so many ways of doing things, which may all be successful. But it's well worth discussing.

__________________

UV will always be contentiously debated, however there is more and more research and evidence to suggest that UVB IS essential to amphibians. recent experiments have shown that juveniles raised from parents that were subjected to UV were allot stronger and healthier than those whos parents were not. Its up to the individual to make there own choice but i would never recommend any thing other than the usage of UV.

Again this is down to personal preference and the quality of the vivarium its self. If the eco system in the vivarium is up to scratch and copping well with the load put on it then i agree i would and do not disturb them either. But i would never say to any body do not worry about it as the vivarium may not be at a level or standard were it will maintain its self.

The fact of the matter is that the people that are reading and relying on care sheets are normally new to the hobby and should be started of on the right foot. As there husbandry techniques and knowledge expands they will then learn for them selfs what is wrong and right and can make there own judgments. I would never tell a beginner that cleaning is not necessarily essential nor would i tell them that uv is still under debate so don't worry. The aim of my self and Treefrogworld.com is to bring knowledge across to people knowing that the frogs in there care will then be safe. I cant tell everyone's situation or level of knowledge and am not prepared to bring my name or the websites down by giving out sketchy information that could prove fatal to some ones frogs. Treefrogworld is aimed at frog enthusiasts from beginner to expert and in the near future will be covering a wider range of articles and care sheets.

the website and care sheet has been updated. Opinions

__________________