Courier Questions

SelinaRealm · #1 (**permalink**) 21-03-2008, 04:13 PM

Hi there,

Before I ask the question that is bugging me, please rest assured that my curiosity is not aimed at anyone currently selling or buying anything and just something I would like to know and clear up for my own information.

cheers!!

Ok, Im confused when it comes to reps that get offered for sale and have courier as an option.

Am I right in thinking that TNT is the ONLY UK courier that has a licience to transport live animals? Am I right in thinking that only people who hold a current Live animal Account (which is not available to any new people, and not everyone has it) can send live animals with them?

Also, if that is right does that mean that is an animal is courierd in any other way (Obviously excluding the personal carriers such as rep taxi etc..) that not only would the animal itself be at risk through the couriers not knowing what is in the package? Also, that sending a live animal with another courier and them having no knowledge what is in the package is actually illegal? or is it just a moral issue?

I just wanted to clear the whole confusing thing up for myself, because living away up here in bonnie Scotland I often find I miss out on things becuase they are too far away....

I have never even used TNT, or had an animal couriered to me before so am unsure of the ins and outs of it all, and sometimes you see courier option noted and then Im too nervious because I think my prospective new pet would just be bundled in the back of a van and then tossed about with the regular packages.

It also worries me that some people buying would also be unaware that they are doing anything wrong, when the option is being offered and its not actually a legal or safe method to use.....

Any incite from those in the know would be much appreciated....

Cheers!

SelinaRealm · #2 (**permalink**) 21-03-2008, 07:22 PM

Anyone know??

macca 59 · #3 (**permalink**) 21-03-2008, 10:29 PM

i did work for a courier company that i cant name, at the main hub for nine years. i have seen fish in plastic bags inside a cardboard box, the sender wrote live fish in pen, no stickers on the box that was placed on a pallet and was due to be loaded when i went to shrink wrap it and there was water on the floor had to strip the pallet and found a box had crushed the box containing the fish! obviously the fish were already dead, nothing i could do. it was settled through insurance. also i have seen live bees in plywood boxes, one box fell off the conveyor belt and they had to get a beekeeper in as the bees had escaped and had gone into the roof of the warehouse and on one occasion someone did say that there was a snake on one of the wagon containers, no one knew what species and with the container not being lit, i took it upon myself to inform the warehouse manager and the wagon was sealed and placed out on the carpark, someone from a zoo came down in the morning and removed it. personally i would recommend a reptile taxi/courier as they will have experience with handling live animals and there would be less chance of any injury/death.

SelinaRealm · #4 (**permalink**) 21-03-2008, 10:41 PM

See, thats the sort of thing I obviously worry about even when it comes to the legal couriers etc..

Would still like to know the answers to the questions regarding if TNT are infact he ONLY courier that is licienced to carry live animals legally in the UK.

There are still many sellers offering courier and things don't match up alot of the time with the prices you could expect quoted for courier with TNT on a live animal account.

It would be good to know if Im right about the TNT only legal one thing, or if Im actually totally wrong in that respect.

xXFooFooLaFluffXx · #5 (**permalink**) 22-03-2008, 12:03 AM

im not quite sure but there are other courier companies people use to transport animals, though i dont know about their license status

TNT though licensed tend to treat all parcels as just that....a parcel, ive heard a horrible story about a guy who was waiting for a tortioise, he was lookin out the window when the delivery guy was comin up the drive and he was throwin the package up in the air! the tortoise was fine, though probably a little dizzy but i dread to think how they are stored in the van.

private couriers may be more expensive but i can personally speak for reptile taxi, as i am currently working with Ditta and can say that we treat all animals that come into our possession with the upmost care and do all in our power to keep them healthy and happy while in transit. That little extra money is really worth it when your animal arrives safe and sound isnt it?

SelinaRealm · #6 (**permalink**) 22-03-2008, 12:21 AM

Hi

Yes, its the large courier companies that deal with pacjkages in general Im talking about.

Im not meaning the private personal couriers that give a special service such as rep taxi etc... because those are specialised and obviously have a caring personal interest in what they are doing and the animals involved.

Whats worrying me is that the legal company I know of TNT has horror stories as it is and that is people using it in good faith and legally and the courier is aware what is in the package (although that still has problems

)

Its just really making me cringe just now at the amount to courier offers by sellers that isn't even through the legal couriors and the poor animal is pretty much bung in the post as such..

Id just really like to be able to actually know that Im right about the other methods being illegal other than TNT, or not.

Judging by some PM's I have recieved, this would now not just be for my own information on correctly advising people, but hopefully the thread would bring it to the attention of buyers who unwittingly, during the excitement of the prospect of an animal they really want, agree to a completely illegal and unsafe method of transportation because they think if the seller is offering it, it must be above board.

I think there is a few people worried about this actually, and no one has brought it up as yet as they are scared it will cause a massive argument. The point is - I am not trying to bring into question on the thread the morality involved in the couriouring of live animals, I myself have done everything possible so far in reptile keeping to not even use the legal method of TNT that I know of, but that is just me.

More trying to get definate information in what is actually illegal......and what is legal, and what couriers so its mabey a bit clearer for people when they are deciding they want to and they don't get stung when their new pet arrives in a bashed up box........

SelinaRealm · #7 (**permalink**) 22-03-2008, 01:57 AM

ok,

So Ive recieved a few more messages than replies in this thread. It seems that although this is a concern for quite a few as to what is right and wrong for them to do legally, the thought of a riot kicking off puts them of posting. People are also being offered courier options that they just don't know if its allowed or not.

I have decided that Im going to start going through one popular courier at a time and list the ones that it is NOT LEGAL for you to send or recieve live animals with, therefore making things very very unnessesarily unsafe for an animal as well as risking a fine if you were to get caught.

Again, this is not about the morality of it, but rather the legal aspect - so please don't start arguing on the thread!!

I will add more as I get the time to check the websites terms and conditions of carridge;

First up is ANC, which is now rebranded and trading as Fedex UK

FedEx UK

FedEx UK – Service Info – Conditions of Carriage

As you can see from section 1 - Definitions:

Prohibited items means -

5. livestock and any other living creatures.

Be aware: If you purchase an animal and accept courier by ANC or Fedex UK you are breaking the law and your live animal is just another package thrown about in the back of a van.

Next is Amtrak

Welcome to Amtrak, the home delivery specialists

Unfortunalty you have to download their terms and conditions in PDF format - so here is an extract of the relevent information for those who do not have PDF reader:

Restricted Goods

9.5 The Customer must not seek to use the Services in respect of Restricted Goods. These are goods which by their nature are subject to a
significantly greater risk of loss or damage than other goods and include goods which are thief attractive, fragile, perishable or inherently
defective. The following are examples of Restricted Goods: stamps, bonds, bullion, deeds, treasury notes, travellers cheques, credit
cards, vouchers, bills of exchange, promissory notes, money of every description, other currency and/or property of a similar nature; and
living creatures (other than pigeons accepted by the carrier for carriage).

Transportation of Animals

9.6 The Customer acknowledges that it may not use the Services in respect of the transportation of any animals other than pigeons (provided
that such pigeons are not to be transported to, or from, outside of mainland UK (consisting of England, Scotland and Wales).
9.7 The Customer confirms all of the following, by using the Service for the transportation of pigeons:
9.7.1 the pigeons are fit to travel and free of infectious disease;
9.7.2 the box provided by the sender is suitable for the species and not overcrowded;
9.7.3 the pigeons do not require the Carrier to provide food or water or any other attention whilst in transit;
9.7.4 the pigeons are not a prohibited or protected species;
9.7.5 the consignee will be available to receive and sign for the Consignment containing the pigeons the next day; and

9.7.6 the pigeons may be transported in ambient temperatures and that no special arrangements for heating or cooling are required.

As you can see, the only animal they are willing/licienced and insured to carry is Pigeons....Why Pigeons?? I have no idea, but those are the rules.

Be Aware: If you purchase an animal and accept courier by Amtrak you are breaking the law and your live animal is just another box thrown about in the back of a van

SelinaRealm · #8 (**permalink**) 22-03-2008, 02:26 AM

Next is DHL

DHL | United Kingdom | Standard DHL Prohibited Commodities

As you can see, Animals are the first on their list of prohibited items

Be Aware: If you purchase an animal and accept courier by DHL you are breaking the law and your live animal is just another package thrown about in the back of a van.

SelinaRealm · #9 (**permalink**) 22-03-2008, 11:54 AM

Many thanks to a fellow member fo the following information - you know who you are.....

Here is a link to the DEFRA website giving information on the EU welfare in Transport regulation.

Defra, UK - Animal health and welfare - Animal welfare - During transport - Publications and guidance

As I said before, Im not that legally minded, so anyone that is and sees that Ive taken it the wrong way, please correct me, its all about me finding out what is right at the end of the day.

From what I have read from the above link I took it from the first section that a courier company which can courier live animals MUST have a valid Transportation Authorisation Certificate, which after applied for the then have to meet certain standards and checks are done before they are given the authorisation.

Therefore, sending an animal by a courier that does not accept live animals for carriage is done without their knowledge and is both illegal and is putting an animal at unnessesary risk.

Also, from the bottom section in the link about Animal Transport Certificates, I have taken it that if you courier an animal over ANY distance it must travel with an Animal Transport Certificate. The animal Transport Certificate is just the basics of the animal, where its going, where its comming from and the expected length of the journey.

Obviously, if sending through the known licience and legal courier of TNT on a live animal account the sender just has to write this information down and make sure it goes along with the animal. However, if you send with a courier which is unlicienced and does not know that they have a live animal in the first place this requirement is obviously also being broken.

Getting the info slowley but surely, thanks to the members who have messaged info and from me trying to investigate myself. So, if there is anything you can see I have not added yet that would be useful, or if Im mistaken in anything, please let me know so I can fix it.....

SelinaRealm · #10 (**permalink**) 22-03-2008, 12:19 PM

Next is PROcourier

PROcourier courier services sameday courier, urgent courier and time critical courier services

As you can see, the relevent section from their terms and conditions are below:

15. Except by special arrangement in writing, PROcourier will not accept for transit or deal with bullion, precious stones, jewellery, valuables, antiques, livestock, animals, reptiles, or plants. Should a Customer deliver any such goods for carriage by PROcourier, without declaring them, PROcourier shall not be liable for any consequent loss, damage, deterioration or liability arising.

Although it states that Animals and Reptiles are prohibited without specially arrangement in writing, I contacted them for futher information on this. I was informed that this is in their terms and conditions incase their is a change in the future and they have applied for the relevent authorisation to do so. So, at this time, they still cannot knowingly accept to courier any live animal.

Be Aware: If you purchase an animal and accept courier by PROcourier you are breaking the law and your live animal is just another package being thrown around in the back of a van.

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