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05-10-2009, 09:55 AM
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 P.S I doubt (Though I could be wrong) any insurance would be valid if the keeper had a DWA without the relevant license so it's a moot point really. 
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05-10-2009, 11:16 AM
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So if someone was doing everything ELSE right... and they lived in that £1500-for-a-licence Council B - then I don't think I'd feel it was my responsibility to report them to Environmental Health although I'd be asking why they hadn't gone for the licence. If they were doing everything right in £85 Council A I'd be asking them some pretty hard questions about why they haven't got the licence and saying they DO need to get it sorted. As for the insurance, I would presume that you could get Public Liability Insurance and perhaps if you were a little... loose with terms... say "I keep large snakes that can be dangerous, I'd like to get public liability insurance in case they ever escaped" ... well, you're unlikely to be seriously covered, but it's a nod in the right direction.
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- Ssthisto "My bum has been a bum for a very long time, but that doesn't mean I have to listen to what it says." - Terry Pratchett, Fifth Elephant  Member 1603 | Buyer Beware ....
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05-10-2009, 11:33 AM
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If you knew someone was driving without a license but they were a competent driver - yet they could still have an accident, and have no insurance, would you report them? How about if they were drink driving & speeding in a residential area as well?
There are always extremes. Most people do not want to be the person who runs to whoever's in charge and tells on them, it's not a good feeling and it's not a good thing to have to do. You shouldn't be put in that position. Most people have the sensibility that if they're going to break the law they do it in private and certainly don't go around boasting about it. I don't believe personally in sticking my nose in other people's business - but if someone is openly flaunting the laws then they can only expect to get caught! I have no idea what kind of person breaks the law, takes pictures of it and shows it to other people whilst admitting it anyway, but it doesn't sound like the type of person who should be keeping DWA. And ultimately it comes down to your personal ethics, assuming you know where he lives and thus can report him. If you think there is a danger to other people will you be able to live with yourself and your conscience if his actions cause another person to be seriously injured or even killed. I once had to report a neighbour for drink driving and it wasn't good - but he was getting absolutely slaughtered and coming home weaving all over the road, driving on the wrong side of the road, and one night I watched him hit two cars trying to park and almost killed a poor cat, and I thought, what if it were some kids crossing that road? I tried to speak to him when sober and he threw a brick through my window the next night whilst drunk, so I had no alternative. He lost his driving license for 3 years, but that's better than a jail cell and a seriously injured person. Perhaps you can try to speak to this keeper and convince them of the dangers and to pass on their scorpion to someone with a DWA - or apply for a license.
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 Also available right now for rehoming: 1 x Juvenile Male Bearded Dragon, 1 x Adult Female Curlytail Lizard
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05-10-2009, 11:43 AM
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Your comments about insurance speak volumes really. Technically wording it as you suggested would constitute fraud as the person would not be declaring that they are keeping the animal illegally. And realistically the individual would not be covered. So I’m struggling to understand how it’s relevant to your consideration as the keeper isn’t insured if he doesn’t have a DWAL. A “nod in the right direction” will mean nothing when any subsequent claim will not be honoured will it? You acknowledge that things “could go pear shaped” yet query the keepers insurance status that can’t actually be covered without the license, so I’m struggling to understand your logic I’m afraid. Your argument appears to hinge on the actual cost of the DWA. Not the welfare of the animal (Remember the keeper has not proven without a DWA to the RELEVANT authority that it can be housed and cared for correctly). And you acknowledge that the keeper has a responsibility to the public etc by stating he should have insurance which they can’t get. Can you see the flaws in what you’re saying?
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05-10-2009, 11:49 AM
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The trouble is on the snake health side of things what if the illegal keeper finds he can't cope with a DWA or is too scared of it to fill the water, They can't sell it very easily because they don't have a licence so either it will get released (I really hope that would never happen) or it will be left to die.
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05-10-2009, 12:00 PM
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 Go for it. I know you want to. 
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05-10-2009, 12:02 PM
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If this was the case then why is the fee so prohibitively expensive with some local authorities?
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DAVE INNIT!
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05-10-2009, 12:05 PM
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I never said I'd actively CONDONE someone not getting the licence (my personal feeling on it is "if you can't afford the licence or don't want the home inspection, you'll have to forgo the animals.") But on the other hand, if someone is a good keeper - someone I myself might aspire to be like - and keeps DWA species, and I just happen to find out through conversation that they are not currently (or never have been) licenced... I do not automatically assume it is my *job* to report them. What is my job at that point is finding out why they aren't licenced, and encouraging them to GET licenced. If I talk to that keeper as a friend, maybe I can make a difference for the better, where reporting them might result in the destruction of their animals. JczReptiles - you have a very, very good point about vet care. Granted, there are not that many vets out there who will even see DWA animals (and GETTING your animal to a vet is going to be a problem - house call would be more likely) but that is no excuse for not being able to provide your animal necessary health care. In that respect, although I still would not see it as my duty to REPORT an unlicenced keeper I sure would be doing everything I could to help them GET licenced. As for the insurance, given my distrust of animal-related (and specifically exotics-related) insurance to begin with - the fine print excludes a hell of a lot - that's something that if the keeper DID have it, great, it still shows they're willing to make a nod in the right direction. It doesn't make a lot of practical difference, but it's showing that they're willing to TRY. If they're willing to try, even if it's not going to work, maybe they're also willing to do what's needed to get the licence. I have to wonder how many unlicenced keepers just don't KNOW they need a licence for the species they have. Are ALL of them doing it in full knowledge that what they're keeping isn't legal without the licence?
__________________
- Ssthisto "My bum has been a bum for a very long time, but that doesn't mean I have to listen to what it says." - Terry Pratchett, Fifth Elephant Member 1603 | Buyer Beware ....
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