In light of recent discussions concerning primates in this forum, and all of the controversy that surrounds not just the species but at times the mere mention of the word - Primate. I thought it would be beneficial to see what keepers thought the codes of conduct for this species should comprise of?

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Hi Brit,

I don't think its a case of placing yourself in the line of fire at all.

I do think that if keepers want to see these codes appear not just for primates, but for all animals kept then they are going to have to kick up a fuss over their creation.

As you well know, l was not happy with the primates coming off dwal, not because the licence was a thing of beauty, but only because it was able to regulate keepers of primates, l still think that all primates should be licenced now, and that would be including the marmoset species as well.

Primates should be licenced full stop, failure to achieve this will result in complete and utter breakdown of correct and corrected husbandry and of course responsible ownership. This is aimed at all primate keepers and l know that many of them do not want a licencing format such as the dwal in place, but l do believe that a 'primate licence' should be created and issued.

I am curently looking at codes of conduct for primates and l think that the end result should they be activated will be seen as a very stark reality of how primates should be kept for now and the future.

Should a code never be released then l only see the end of primate keeping in private hands in the UK.

R

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What worries me is that should a COP not be released, where will the regulations come from for primates? In quite a frank manner of speaking - stuff the keepers! The primates can't speak out for themselves and I am sick to the back teeth of hearing people saying "I know my monkey is happy living in substandard conditions in a bird cage in the living room and being mauled by my kid brother every day". For God's sake when will these people learn that the seller has sold them a single monkey NOt for the benefit of the primate but for the benefit to thier pocket and the ease of not having to deal with offspring themselves - often because they have adults not being kept in optimal conditions.

It really gets to me and I am not, nor do I plan to ever become, a primate keeper so it REALLY phishes me off to think that primate keepers - who in my mind should be classed as a specialist group - don't seem to want anything to happen to the hobby which will benefit the charges they display thier interest in.

Enough waffle anyhoo

(can't get on MSN for some reason either Rory but got link and will try to get on and chat tomorrow)

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It is not just the primate keepers who are at fault to be honest, but in many respects a lot of keepers right across the board who do not want to better the hobby, or can not be bothered to see it improve, or do not think there is athreat so why worry?

I had a pm the other day from a member of this forum who said l should be less aggressive in my posts, and l had to laugh, because in actual fact l do not think l come across as aggressive enough, but l could be. But prefer to reserve that strength for when times are appropriate.

I was told that l was a scaremongerer and fear mongerer last year, so l have been quiet on the fact front, just awarding readership with what needs to be awarded.

But the simple feature present in the industry today is this, many keepers are fearing the political legislation and as such are turning a blind eye to its potential power .... and possible threats.

Primates are a specialist species, but then so are reptiles, indeed, are not all the animals dealt with by the exotic keeping community's not specialist?

And what should happen if the primate codes are not released?

Well l think that is relatively simple to answer... those that oppose the keeping of them, will start to campaign against the keeping of the species in private hands.

R

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Recently pointed out to me, although not entirely lost on me is one feature which of course l feel should not be overlooked by any keeper of species kept, but should be viewed by primate keepers with some significance is of course the pyschological aspect of keeping primates.

Many neurological problems arise from especially the keeping of singles, the hand rearing aspects, the wrong environment, the wrong or lack of enrichment, the lack of companionship, the wrong handling, the wrong enclosures, the lack of the right diet, the right care, all these topics are paramount to ensuring that your primates life in captive care is optimum.

Its too easy for certain primates to be purchased, there is no policing or enforcement nor regulation in place to ensure that issues like this are dealt with correctly.

The opposition to the keeping of primates do place a great amount of responsibility on this issue alone - what of the pyschological aspect of keeping primates - how does it affect them long term?

The anti believes for some strange reason that the private keeper can buy wild caught primates through the pet trade, and this is not the case, primates are in fact captive bred. So when one reads about the illegal trade in wild caught primates, l feel sure that they are confusing countries here.

When they talk of the illegal ownership of primates, to which do they refer? Without licence? Or when did it become illegal to actually own a primate?

That aside, and back to the pyschological aspect of primates, this issue, alongside all the other issues is l think one of the most important topics that needs to be addressed.

But does it really need to simply be addressed to primates, can it not indeed be looked upon for all species kept in captive care?

I occasionally watch cold blood with D/A and have to be honest that when l look at the native environments to all these reptiles, why would anyone not want to keep them in an enclosure that was not at least a little stimulating, and instead keep them on newspaper for ease?

Probably get slated for that, fine, but then look at it this way, the codes of practice if drawn up for reptiles will also be looking at the substrate, the enrichment and the environment.

Now if keepers who say that primates should be kept in the right conditions can say that, then they too must also understand that where is - for primates - a fair comment, look at reptiles, are they all kept in optimum conditions? Is the plastic box really ideal for them?

Perhaps for convenience maybe, but what of the empathy voter who also watches this series and is fascinated by the natural surroundings of the species, as much as the opposition feel that primates can not be kept properly by the private keeper, do they not have the rights to suggest that it should apply to the next political species agenda - reptiles?

So primates yes, need to be addressed in a pyschological issue, but l think so do - all the others.

R

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I think for me personally, it is this one which always gets me annoyed with keepers:

'Any need to be housed with, or apart from, other animals'

Primates are a social species, unless of course naturally they are a solitary species, but the likes of marmosets and tamarins especially as they are the most commonly kept species in the United Kingdom, these are a social species, and do need to be kept in pair, troops, groups.

Continuing along from the pyschological aspect in my previous post, social enrichment comprises of the species being able to freely exhibit normal behavioural patterns as well as cognitive ability.

The amount of times, l am asked by potential keepers for a single 'monkey' is staggering. Indeed on this very forum, we have one such example.

But l genuinely do not understand how keepers whom say they have researched into primates can expect a single to be happy with its life.

Constantly l hear those wannabee keepers state that they can give the primate everything they need - HOW?

This is the issue alongside others that the codes should reflect, but also that keepers should be able to comprehend what this code means.

Is it too much to ask of keepers to put themselves out a little? The anti and the opposition may not always be up to speed with accurate figures, but they do know the acute political agendas - is it little wonder that the opposition to primates are heralded by professional conservationists - who do know their stuff, who understand the implications behind the species.

But they also know their politics, and is it also little wonder that they look at 'exotic animal keepers' with scorn and distaste? For whilst there may be a percentage who do everything they can to ensure that their animals are in optimum environmental conditions - the percentage who do not is indeed much higher.

Not only do many exotic keepers refrain from taking the research , but they also have at times a complete and utter failing to demonstrate their passions politically, and as a result of this - those whom oppose what keepers maintain, can only but surmise that the captive exotic animal carer - really does not care for the future of their animals?

So l would like to know especially from primate keepers, why you think and how you can justify to not just me, but to all how and why your single primates can co exist with you as their sole 'buddy?'

R

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lets face it the people that keep single primates will never come forward and say they do as they will get slated

I dont know how many primate keepers come to this site but we know there are people on here who keep single primates

They know how they are keeping there primates is wrong otherwise they would come forward and say something,so come on stand up and have your say

Still they must be good for nothings and putting at risk us that care for them proper ,to others that really are only thinking of themselves

Well you know my views on this Irwin, and you know that l agree with what you state.

R

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and i havent seen it mentioned, the animal dealers who provide these unfortunate animals are as guilty as, if not more so than thier misguided psuedo child in a cage keepers, i dont think i should continue until i say, that i dont like u rory or ur partner, u call ur customers "clients" add long winded and fancy "consultant primatologist" crap to ur posts, ur both animal dealers, in the lowest sense. at the end of the day money is ur driving force, and the keeper's is something to stare at and place little christmas hats on in photos. if primates were banned from private keeping then that would in every sense be in the best interests of the primates.I hope i haven't been too honest for this forum and thread, rgds, Edward