in all honestly i think we should have to pay for a licence for all pets,years ago we had dog licences.

I have mixed feelings on this issue right now.

Whilst I beleive that we should all have the right to keep and care for whichever animal we choose, I beleive also that primates NEED a good COP in place to ensure they are in the right envirnment with a good keeper.

Is the proposed removal of them as a privately owned species being put in place because it is easier to ban than to regulate the keepers who wish to work with them?

I feel the removal of primate species off the DWA was a bad desicion. I know the DWA is there to protect the public and is not based on the safety of the animal but it did offer some form of protection for primates who were listed. It prevented them from being bought by those under 18, it ensured that the keeper had a suitable enclosure set up before the primate was purchased.

I am not a primate keeper, I doubt I ever will be because I don't see that I could ever offer the time needed to correctly care for a primate species (kids and businesses see to that!) but should a day ever come where I was in a position to offer the correct requirements for primates, I would be happy to abide by a reasonable COP that was based around the primtes welfare and would also be happy to pay a license fee and be subject to regular inspections - something which I feel right now certain species would benefit from.

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I believe you should be allowed to keep primates but only once an independent and unbiased inspector has vetted your 'setup' and your knowledge and there should be regular check ups and surprise visits, if you fail to meet the requirements you shouldn't be allowed to have one.

I would personally never even contemplate keeping a primate as I don't think I could give them the level of interaction they deserve and need.

I do believe if it is open to people then there should be no age limit, if you can pass the criteria then you should be allowed to have the animal, I know plenty of 15/16/17 year olds who are far more competent and caring keepers than a lot of 'adults' I know.

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I think judging by all that is being discussed with primates in the last few years is that the private ownership sector has not always shown nor displayed infinite wisdom when it comes down the husbandry and maintenance of this species.

Way too many keepers still have single marmosets in parrot cages and smaller, so the enclosures have been inadequate. The acceptance or belief that primates are pets, has also caused major ridicule between authorities, opposition and long term primate keepers. [As in they are not pets, and should not be classed as such]

Diet conflict has also been the subject of great discussion.

Lack of stimulation provided causes again the opposition and those that truly appreciate the value of primates concerns.

Then we have those whom do not understand the importance of the facts that primates should not be kept in solitary confinement and need the interaction of companion primates.

That the private market has little comprehension of research and still way too many sellers of primates do not request from buyers what research they have undertaken for this species. A reluctance by many novice keepers to meet the basic care and criteria of primates - again a source of conflict.

The lift of primates off the DWA was not the best move for this meant that many primates will now not even be regulated - the DWAL may well not have been the ideal licence, but it did keep tabs on primates that were on the scheme, albeit did not regulate the keeping of marmosets, still one of the biggest sore areas and the most singly kept primate in the UK today.

There should be a form of regulation on primate keepers, be this a licencing scheme or a registration. How they could police it effictively - well that alone is another matter all together.

Of course the opposition will still feed the lines in of harness keeping and dressing up - but these are terms that l still hear today from prospective keepers of primates:

"I want to walk him in the park"
"I want to be able to have him on my shoulder in town"
"My wife wants to dress them up"
"We want something to be watching TV with us in the sitting room"
"We want something for the kids to play with"
"Our parrot has recently died, we want something to go into the cage - please see the attached photo"
"Are jam sandwiches okay to feed?"
"They don't need anything else as company, they have us"
"Will they be able to play with us in the garden?"
"We thought that they could be our little children, now that the kids have left home"

Terms like this - ARE still very much heard, l hear them, and l too like the opposition, the authorities, the genuine keepers are disgusted by them. But it is little wonder that those that oppose the keeping of primates kick off about the primate market - or perhaps a much clearer term or expression should be the Non Human market.

To reiterate, l guarantee hearing at least one of these terms twice a month at present and they are aimed at Marmosets up to Capuchins.

In many respects l can truly understand why so many oppose the actual keeping of this species.

And let us look at what people refer to as specialist keepers - what does this really imply?

Is it someone who is based at a zoo, game park, education or learning facility? Or is it a recognised body certification requirement that is to be awarded to keepers upon successful completion? Is it not schooling at all, but perhaps a sit down test?

Come on, again how does this get policed?

Personally, as l have already said, yes private sector does have the right to ownership, but politically under the current management of this species by the private keepers at what cost is this having on the future of primate keeping - cost - human cost - animal cost - their lives are at stake.

For sadly under the keeping by many, primates l think are becoming the victims of human error and stupidity.

Time will tell alone as to how primate keepers will fare - and l do believe that the COP will not just be warranted in potential severity and restrictions on how they are kept - but may well be the ultimate deciding factor in whether they are kept at all.

Rory Matier
PKL: Pro Keepers Alliance

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Adverts like this also doesn't help any of the exotic market let alone the primate market:

I would like to think and hope that this is just yet another scamming, l would hate to think someone is letting go of a pair of Siberian Lynx for £600 with no words of DWAL.

But it also does not show - should it be true - exotic rescues in any favourable light.

Here we have a classic case of Diet Conflict and of course an old spec on the Kinkajous.

The sad fact is that many adverts for primates nowadays are falsehoods and scams, but the likes of the opposition do not see that, they do not necessarily see it as such, but just look at poor husbandry and irresponsible ownership.

R

£600 or reasonable offer

Location: Scotland
Tamed & Loving Primates For Adoption: We are forced to part with our one year old: -Pair of Greater Bush Baby . -Pair of Kinkajou baby monkeys. -Pair of Siberian Lynx. They are a very friendly and home raise guys. They are wonderful, energetic, inquisitive, smart and tamed.They like to eat whatever we eat and are ok.Their favorite foods are spaghetti,mini marshmallows, but they will eat almost anything.they would make a great addition to any educational program or zoo.they are health confirmed with one year guarantee each.The only reason we are parting with them is because we run a licensed, non-profit, exotic animal rescue and we are in desperate needs of funds right now. I believe we are not asking more than reasonable offer for these magnificent animal. we have no problem shipping . Please feel free to contact us on email if you have any questions or more details.

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there are far too many scammers advertising yes, often giving people a very false view of not only what is available, but also the price they would be looking to pay..

see:

Other Pets classifieds in luton : we have a lovely capucin ready to leave to a pet...

Luton we have a lovely capucin ready to leave to a pet loving home.he has all pedigrees and is registered.he is still young and home trained.he has all papers ready and is vet checked.he loves the company of kid and other pets.

Other Pets classifieds in devon : Lovely capuchin monkeys for sale. am a home...

£200 no offers
Location: Devon
Lovely capuchin monkeys for sale. am a home breeder of capuchin monkeys. i now have capuchin babies ready to leave to loving homes and caring families. they are well trained,socialized,diaper train, hand reared and vet checked. they will come with health certificate and veterinarian examination. my babies are ready to go.they will make wonderful co..

Other Pets classifieds in London : my Capuchin baby monkeys are available and set for...

£1,500
Location: London
my Capuchin baby monkeys are available and set for a new loving family with so much love and affection.They are 9 weeks old now.they are DNA registered and have all their DNA ,health and vet papers.she is up to date on all shots ,vet examined and very healthy, raised around my children and other household pets,they are having a sweet and lovely temperament.They are very lovely and playful,they are diapers trained and have been bottle fed since day one.have very good and lovely personality every heart will desire.They know and response to their names every time you call them.They are coming along with all her,vet and health papers, DNA registration papers and all her cites permit papers, and a year guarantee

Other Pets classifieds in Newcastle : Adorable baby male and female Capuchin monkeys for...

£1,000
Location: Newcastle
Adorable baby male and female Capuchin monkeys for sale. I have lovely home raised,registered,shotted,VET checked capuchin babies ready to go at 16weeks, i sell with all paper works and health papers.


Other Pets classifieds in Lancashire : I have lovely home raised,registered,shotted,VET...


£800
Location: Lancashire
I have lovely home raised,registered,shotted,VET checked capuchin babies ready to go at 12weeks, i sell with all paper works and health papers.


these are all from just one site, and all from the last week. there are more on other sites, ukclassifieds is one of the worst normally!

N

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Nerys Post

And of course this is just one of the problems the primate market faces on a daily basis.

We can expect at best fellow keepers to recognise an advert that is not correct. But we can not expect those who do not keep any kind of exotic animal to see them for the falsehood they are.

Whether our opposition see them as false is debateable, yet it does not matter, for all the problems with primate scams, there are equally as many problems with genuine issues surrounding primate care in the United Kingdom today.

We should not just look at these problems as being for the last few years alone - but also we only need go back 15-20 years when primates were being sold in much higher quantities in pet stores.

The opposition is like an elephant, long memory, they do not forget, and whilst the buying market trundles along in its merry fashion buying, selling, bartering, the opposition as a machine just continually gathers informations on a regular basis to use at the right moment.

R

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This is a very, very serious problem.

I have literally just spoken to a lady from ukclassifieds who has these listed below.

£1000 each and no questions asked.

Oh right, well that is splendid isn't it, dont believe me, then look the advert up for yourself,10/01/2008.

3 Months of age, it is disgusting. I could well have been the RSPCA, antis anybody, and not a question as to who l was. The way l feel l may as well be an anti!!

This sort of unregulated advertising will sink the genuine primate keepers who keep these animals out of passion.

We as a consultancy can be slammed for all sorts of things - BUT we don't do this any of it.

She has already sold the second of the two, being picked up Sunday.

2 ADORABLE BABY MARMOSETS FOR SALE
3 MONTHS OLD
MUST GO TO GOOD HOMES
Ring for more details
1 MALE LEFT!

Question? What is a good home then????

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one of the only genuine ad's on there at the moment, is for 3 months old marmoset young.. at £1000 each - see rorys post above.

(that, incidently, and for those who have been following recent accusations of prices being too high... is MORE than the price we, as a broker/consultant, are displaying for common marmies on tska)

i just said to him jokingly, ask her if a suggie cage is ok to keep them in... *sigh*

N

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Okay, so I let curiosity get the better of me and decided to ring the above stated advert.

Now whilst I have a lack of sepcific knowledge with primates and have never personally kept them, I found the seller's information to be worrying at the least.

This is what I was told.

The marmoset for sale is a lone male of just over 3 months old. He is apprently hand tame, feeding 100% independantly of the mother and is running around and such already.

His parents are seemingly kept in a reasonable enclosure which is an avairy of 8x5x7 (LxWxH in feet) but I was told that the baby would be suitably housed in "a large parrot cage with anesting box as high as possible". He should be allowed lots of out of cage time to "run around the house" (with no mention of the precautions needed to ensure his safety).

His diet information was brief althoug I was told I would receive a sheet containing diet information and supplier details upon purchase.

The worrying thing was the seller informed me that a crucial part of my keeping the marmie baby alive was to provide him with a good quality UV light as he required vitamin D3 to replace sunlight.

I was also told he would require additional heating while he was young to the temperature of 25 degrees. As an adult he would not need any heating at all as his body would do that for him.

The seller owns the little ones parents and they seemingly have the required company (thier mate), outdoor aviary (as stated above), correct diet (mention of pellets, jelly etc), nest boxes etc.

What disturbs me as I am a novice exotics keeper compared to many and even I understand the implications of housing a underage marmoset in a parrot cage on it's own and offering him free roam of the house.

I am disturbed that, to me the seller came across as not badly fixed in the knowledge of housing adult marmosets and thier needs yet they seemed more interested in the £1000 than anything else. I had stated I had never owned an exotic animal before, let alone a primate species and that was not a problem for the seller provided the price was met.

What are your views?

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