Yes well said Marie, too many people just want to own a monkey like its the in thing to do today.

R

__________________

I think if you saw the state of the T hobby end, you'd be just as upset. There is so much confusion over simple things like latin names, origin etc. I cannot stand on the high ground here as I have two vinegaroons which atm as unknown - however, I have contacted several arachnologists to help identify it, and I've read numerous books on most aspects of arachnid biology, so I feel that I am quite knowledgable in my own little niche.

What annoys me is that many people dont even take this simple step in ANY pet ownership. How many people buy a pet, and THEN ask what it needs to live? Even if its something as relatively undemanding as an invertebrate, or as complex as a primate, research should be done first. What annoys me, is that often it isnt - both by keepers and animal breeders.

__________________
"All I know is my gut says maybe"

Brachypelma albopilosum (Charlotte)
100's of Harvestmen
Member of the BAS and AAS.

Well said GRB,

The sad fact is that we live in the 'l want , l want it now market!'

Have seen one and that is the ideal.....a,b,c.d,e ......'pet' for me lol!

It is way too easy to buy many animals nowadays, from inverts upwards, far too few sellers ask the right questions and far too many really worry about it after their pockets are filled.

Now before a great slap is awarded me by sellers, retailers, keepers or breeders - take a step back and think if you have met the ideal seller, or been the ideal seller.

Oh sure we have forms now, but four years ago and before the forms of two years ago, l did not have all the right questions aimed at buyers. It takes work to get the right questions aimed at the right species.

Now l have the primate one up and is does affront people, two years ago l worried about that, now l do not, they are not offensive questions, but they are direct access to the knowledge you either already possess or have researched.

I will be introducing several very direct forms from this point onwards aimed at numerous species, from sugar gliders upwards.

But now four years on, l am asking the right questions, keep track on all the species we sell and genuinely do care about the animals and the keepers whom have parted with them - not saying l did not care before, but now the focus is out there that that is what we are about.

Focusing on husbandry, rights, and so on.

More sellers need to concentrate on this for a numbering of reasons, it shows responsibility, it declares that you do have the right attitude.

Marie will slam into Sugar Glider owners, poor care sheets etc, and why should she not? Well of course she should, she offers an excellent service with sugar lumps, she wants to make sure everything is right for animal and keeper. There are fantastic reptile sellers out there that do the same........it is the responsible way forwards - reputations are hard to achieve but so easily shattered, you have to work at it.

When you are good getting the right success ratio, then you will be slammed and criticised anyway, for being too hard, or too strict and so, SO WHAT?

Least l can sleep at night, as can the other responsible sellers.

R

__________________

I agree with most of what you guys have said. I do not know much about keeping primates and probably never will, but I firmly believe they should be left to zoological institutions and those few keepers who have the time/resources/money/experience to deal with their needs. They are super intelligent and I see why people want them as 'pets', there is a definate fascination with a non human being which can express emotions and most probably has a concious, thinking mind.

There is a lot in the whole 'cool' 'fashion' thing too. A mate of mine recently said his dream when he gets a job was to have a monkey like Ross in Friends. I think I controlled myself quite well I tried my best to explain that it was a ridiculous and cruel idea in a way that wasn't insulting to him, but really I just wanted to have a massive rant at him. I explained how much space/enrichment they need, the fact that they need to be in social groups and pairs are pretty damn insuffiecient etc etc but as I don't know much on it I tried not to get preachy.

I will never understand why people would want to degrade/deprive a primate so much to keep them as a house pet, and I hope those that do get severly bitten. But then WHEN that happens, what happens to the little cute monkey???

I think everyone trading in primate should have as strict rules as TSKA does with their exotics, then maybe it would make people think more than twice about what these animals need and how unsuitable they are to fit in to daily life.

As I said, I don't know a lot but thats my 2 pence

__________________
Kate

2.2.2 - Eublepharis macularius0.1.0 - Sceloporus malachiticus 1.1.0 - Varanus acanthurus brachyurus0.0.1 - Tiliqua gigas evanescens 0.4.0 - Felis catus 1.0.0 - Fat, old goldfish
Lots of tropical fish...

I agree - although I'd like to see more control overall in the whole industry. Its so true about the "I want, I want I want" thought process. I thinkmost people seem to have quite balanced veiwpoints, which is nice.

I have to admit, there are times where I just would rip into people who post the typical "i've got one of these (common name) how do i care for it please". Argh. The other thing that aggrovates me, is the collections people have: I often wonder what possesses someone with relatively little experience (eg 6 months) from wanting 20+ animals - be it rats, inverts or whatever. How can they possibly be experienced enough to cater for so many animals safely?

I have researched arachnids for my whole life - starting with field guides when I was young, to my present books on their biology - and I would never suggest that I could realistically look after more than about 5 inverts. I have only about 8 months experience as a keeper, and I'd never want to risk animals by having too many to look after correctly. I'd be even more petrified to try my hand at numerous vertebrate/reptiles or primates - hell, it must take ages to become even half competant with primates, and that's not good enough. I'd have to do a hell of a lot of research.

__________________
"All I know is my gut says maybe"

Brachypelma albopilosum (Charlotte)
100's of Harvestmen
Member of the BAS and AAS.

And this is why l feel it is going to be very difficult to have the codes of practice not just written but also adhered to , when so many inexperienced keepers just want to get them and not really bother to read up about them.

R

__________________

"I will never understand why people would want to degrade/deprive a primate so much to keep them as a house pet, and I hope those that do get severly bitten. But then WHEN that happens, what happens to the little cute monkey???"

Hi Miffkins,

The trouble with that happening is that then all decent keepers are suddenly tarred with the same brush as that of the twit that gets bitten.

We can all be twits, including me, l got mauled by my Racoons a few years ago, but l was attacked inside their cage, the animals went from being playful to all out aggressive, and it was my error which triggered it. But then l am a keeper, of not bad experience and l made a ten second error that resulted in 2 minutes of scorching hell.

But l did not shout out about it, the press damn them of course were on the scene very quickly due to hospital staff informing the local press. But a backward farmer who upon giving me a lift to the hospital objected to the fact that he had a four foot blood gusher hitting his window screen!

He told the press, that the Racoons were loose, and would undoubtedly get into his cat flap and run off with him during the night!!

Which was bollocks, they were still in their cage, oblivious to their sudden increased popularity, lol.

But you see all keepers can get bitten, but then whilst Racoons and a host of other species are under the political exotic hammer, they are not under the same pressure as that of primates.

If primates bite someone, and the press get it, they will turn it into a carnival of fear, in which the antis will thrive upon for it feeds their guns that drives their opposition bullets.

And with the current level of feeling from the exotics keepers themselves it would not take long for even the opposing pro side to join in - this happens all the time from snake bites to spreading malicious rumours about a host of things.

It was rumeroured recently in fact that our animals [skunks] were all sorts of things, from smuggled to carrying strange zoonotic diseases that could kill. This too was not true, they were tested and were found to be clear.

But when you think that the treadmill of malignant rumours is oft started in this industry alone by our own side, then the press and the antis do not need much of a run up to start the ball rolling and of course when the first press releases come of 'primates attacking and king kong sized bites' for that is how it will read to sell the stories, then we will start to see the pressures increase greatly upon the keepers of this species.

So whilst l fully understand your sentiment, l actually wish for no keeper especially novices to be bitten in the process of them keeping this species, for this will do more damage for not just an already paranoid primate keeping market, but also start the avalanche of criticism about all exotic keepers in general.

"They are super intelligent and I see why people want them as 'pets', there is a definate fascination with a non human being which can express emotions and most probably has a concious, thinking mind".

Sadly in most cases, the primates the inexperienced keep are a darn sight smarter than their keepers and this in itself makes for even more troubles.

And yes they are smarter, remember the film Link? lol

All keepers and in so doing sellers of not just primates, need to exercise more care and attention to would be buyers of anything exotic or otherwise.

R

__________________

Firstly ill say i would like to keep primates, but in the same sense id also like to rule my own country. Its something i can think about, day dream per se but i fully realise i will probably never have the time, money or land to keep them to the standard i believe they need. As a conservationist it would be a dream if all the animals could be maintained and kept in the wild without threat from habitat loss or poaching but its obvious that theres a long way before this will happen.

Perhaps in some nieve way people may think they're helping this situation by having a primate, ive seen primate keepers say that they're providing a 'safe' environment as if to say the wild isnt safe anymore.

On a slight tangent perhaps the issue is with the sellers rather than the buyers, if you cant buy something readily then most people will grow tired of searching and wont bother. I typed 'capuchins sale' into google.co.uk and the first page at least were all adverts for monkeys for sale. Homes On Sale - 4 Detached, beline, Cute Baby Capuchin Monkey for sale buy and sell property online is the weirdest by far, a website for selling houses but used to advertise primates.

It would be easy for me to say to make it illegal to sell primates without a specialist license but tighter controls are needed. If people cant acquire primates then hopefully most of the horror stories we hear would be stopped. Ebay have quite succesfully banned the sale of livestock on there so surely other websites such as preloved and other advertisement sites could enforce this.

This could lead to an increase in a more underground and clandestine primate sales industry but surely this would lead to an overall reduction in the number of primates in the hands of 'numptys'.

As you've said Rory primates are incredibly strong, lethal in some cases but there is nothing stopping me buying one tomorrow and ending up with it mauling me, my OH or someone else. Yet i can get IDed in Woolworths if i try and purchase a plastic knife and gun sales are strictly limited. The regulations are seriously messed up simply because they're considered 'pets'.

The legislation just doesnt seem to be there. You always refer as primates as politically hot animals, but the politics seem very aimed at what could go wrong rather than preventing the idiots acquiring primates in the first place.

Anyways im sure this makes some sense in some parts of it, its trying to type whilst This Mornings on, lol.

zak

as far as i am aware, there are currently NO genuine adverts for:

capuchins
spider monkeys
"most others"

on ANY of the current internet classified websites dealing with the uk...

with the exception of our (TSKA) ones..

so bare in mind when you read the web classifieds, that quite literally 99.9% if the ads you see for primates are scammers trying to get money.

so many people fall for it.. even a couple going through our vetting at the moment, who have incidently said they will allow us to show pics of things like the enclosures they are building to our specifications, have been done out of 2000 before they spoke to us.

we actually went to see them the other weekend, and poor things, they were terrified we would not turn up, or would turn up and demand money with no animals in sight..

i still cannot believe people fall for them time and time again, but almost none of the classifieds sites are well enough policed to do anything about it, even when you report the ads as being scammers, most of the time they are left in place.

N

__________________

Surely there are other places than TSKA that deal in primates hence people acquiring them?