Taking the 'Hobby' too far - The Sequel - Page 3

Miranda · #21 (**permalink**) 12-02-2008, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by toyah

This is a huge issue. I have never known another fancy where the indiscriminate breeding of any animal is so encouraged. Offspring are produced with no regard as to where they will end up, but as long as they sell noone seems to care.

The only qualification in reptiles for a snake being "breeding quality" seems to be that it does not have any major deformities. In any other species, a breeder using that selection criteria would be looked down on - or called a backyard breeder or puppy farmer or worse.

If you have a clutch of, say, ten bloodred corn snakes, some will be better than others. To a large degree it irritates me that if I breed a clutch of corns, the less vibrantly coloured or poorer feeding babies will be bred from ... what is the point, from the view of improving the species, when the better coloured, better feeding, stronger siblings will have babies? But unfortunately the culture is that if you spend more than about £7 on a snake, then it must pay its way!

In most other animals, a baby will cost a decent amount of money - but once it is grown, even a bit, it can't command that sum again. It might be priceless to the owner, but a rehome is normally done for a token sum. I would love if reptiles followed that "pricing structure" as I think if people knew they couldn't get their money back if they changed their mind on their new snake in six weeks time, then they wouldn't be in such a hurry to buy without thinking. I dread the thought of a snake I have produced or sold at any point ending up being handed to a rescue or mistreated, but because of constant buying and selling it's near impossible to track - and because value holds, I couldn't afford to buy back any snake someone didn't want anymore at any point in time.

A story - I wanted some new corn snake bloodlines that weren't available in the UK or Europe, so I imported. As part of doing that import, I brought in a few extra snakes to sell on to other fanciers - I needed a minimum amount in order to be able to ship, and I figured it would help split the costs of shipping over a few people who were interested in morphs not commonly available over here. The snakes went out to their new homes, and out of around maybe 15 snakes I sold (this was only last August/September), half of them have been resold already, at least once. I know of one snake who is now on his second new home since I gave him away, and is up for sale again - in just over six months!

C'mon people ... put a bit of thought into what you're buying. I accept that breeders will have to move on older animals sometimes ... either holdbacks that have not turned out to be high quality breeding animals, or young adults who have produced such high quality offspring that they can be retired early to a pet home. But those situations are a bit different to buying something and thinking a month later "I'd prefer something else instead".

Secondly, there is no separation between commercial and hobbyist. I have seen people who breed reptiles for a living complaining that prices are dropping, and so they won't be able to afford to continue ... and my response is, so what? Maybe you have to accept that reptile breeding is a hobby, not a business. The only other businesses I can think of that manage to make a living breeding pet animals are puppy mills and the equivalents for small furry pets - which people are always campaigning to have closed down or at least better regulated.

Calling this whole thing a hobby or a fancy comes naturally to me, as it has many similarities to other small animal hobbies or fancies. Numbers don't come into it, as everyone has their own "coping level" - for some people caring for three animals is too many, some people can provide excellent care for a hundred or more. I feel saying under X amount is a hobby and over Y amount is something else is not helpful for that reason.

Personally, I always consider a hobby breeder someone who breeds primarily for their own purposes - a male and female are paired with a definite aim of producing something to hold back, with the surplus being sold or traded. And a trade breeder is someone who breeds offspring purely to sell, with no intentions of holding any babies back.

What a post!
This should be stickied!
I hate to say this, but i have a friend like this, she has a leo and she thikns the world of it, but she got it about a month ago and shes already thinking about getting a male to breed her! i had to stop her and persuade her other wise. i think breednig should be seen as a wonderful thing of nature, not snake + snake = Babies =£££!MONEY!£££

bradhollands999 · #22 (**permalink**) 12-02-2008, 06:09 PM

Miranda - You are very sensible for your age...

Very good posts by everyone so far and i agree 100%. A lot of people but snakes and then "due to a change in circumstances" have to sell and i bet most of these are because it was an impulse buy...

Ssthisto · #23 (**permalink**) 12-02-2008, 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by toyah

If you have a clutch of, say, ten bloodred corn snakes, some will be better than others. To a large degree it irritates me that if I breed a clutch of corns, the less vibrantly coloured or poorer feeding babies will be bred from ... what is the point, from the view of improving the species, when the better coloured, better feeding, stronger siblings will have babies?

And oh the horror if you suggest that you believe that poor feeders and poor doers shouldn't be bred from - and that the only way to prevent this, given that everyone who buys a snake DOES seem to pair it up and breed it eventually - is to either keep permanently or humanely euthanise the ones that you, the breeder, do not feel will contribute to the benefit of the species in captivity as a whole. Gods forbid you should decide that you as a breeder would prefer only to pass on the healthiest animals' genes.

I have a lavender corn who was a gift from a member on here. She was given as a nonfeeder; we've gotten her feeding since and she's actually an enthusiastic little beggar, though she's still small compared to the corn I got at the same time, from the same breeder, of the same age, who fed from the get go. I must admit I CONSIDERED breeding Kainite if I could get her feeding... but you know what? No. She didn't feed first time straight out of the egg on what most pet keepers will be willing to give - and if I'm going to breed a common, unthreatened species I am going to breed with the goal of producing a DOMESTICATED animal that will feed eagerly on what is readily available. Kainite is beautiful and might grow into my ideal Lavender... but she won't further my breeding goals. She's a pet. A lovely, feisty pet who will stay with me for life. Because that's the only way *I* can guarantee she won't be bred.

That's one reason I wish two things:

1. I wish that the "reptile shows" were arranged more like the OTHER animal fanciers' shows - with actual competition between keepers and breeders to show that their animals are the best, healthiest and closest to an agreed standard of appearance. It might not stop the "backyard-breeder" equivalents - but it would legitimise the fancy. We're not just breeding to sell animals, we're breeding to IMPROVE animals.

2. I wish that it was easier and cheaper to have reptiles spayed/neutered. That would make it possible for folk like me that don't want 'pet quality' animals to be bred to make it possible to SELL pet-quality animals. Even chemical castration would be acceptable. Yeah, it'd be great if I could offer a baby corn who got a slow start, wasn't a good feeder, or was a patchy feeder, to someone as a PET only for a lower price - and KNOW that they wouldn't be using that lower price as an excuse to get cheap breeding stock. As it is... I couldn't do that. I won't contribute to poor bloodlines, nonfeeders and poor doers by allowing things I wouldn't keep and breed myself to go to people who might breed them - or sell them on later to someone who would. You can bet your bottom that if I breed an expensive morph animal that won't eat... it isn't leaving my house. Either it will be kept as a curiosity and a pet ... or it will go to feed something else I keep.

I have ... a lot of animals. Now, some of them get daily extended attention; others I leave alone. Yeah, I've got some "pets" who aren't pettable - animals that I don't handle because neither of us like it when I try. But in that respect, I don't choose to FORCE them to let me handle them either. Pepper, my female house snake, doesn't want to be handled and I don't want to make her let me - because it would take away from what I like about her - that she IS a fiery little monster.

I am considering cutting down on a few things; we have a couple of animals we got because we'd planned to breed, but have realised that's not going to be possible or practical, and we'd rather see them go to someone who will either want to breed them or who will appreciate them as individual pets instead. At the same time, there are other animals I still very much want and we have hopes and plans that we may be able to convert our garage into a dedicated reptile house.

So what if we don't have a "social life"? Neither of us really knows anyone in our town anyway (except for a few keepers on here!) because neither of us grew up here; we occasionally do things with coworkers at our various workplaces, but given the choice between going out for a drink after work or coming home and fussing over the rats... I'd rather have Nellie, Robin, Alaska, Siberia, Three and Spice on my lap eating oatmeal from a bowl than go and spend money at a pub. I'd rather get Chess out of his viv and take him outside in the sun for half an hour than go walk 'round town. It's my little life and I like it.

toyah · #24 (**permalink**) 13-02-2008, 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ssthisto

1. I wish that the "reptile shows" were arranged more like the OTHER animal fanciers' shows - with actual competition between keepers and breeders to show that their animals are the best, healthiest and closest to an agreed standard of appearance. It might not stop the "backyard-breeder" equivalents - but it would legitimise the fancy. We're not just breeding to sell animals, we're breeding to IMPROVE animals.

Definitely. This is the future of the fancy - at least it's the future of *my* fancy, which centres around corn snakes and royal pythons. I appreciate it might not be a really practical idea for keepers of some of the more delicate or unusual snakes, but that doesn't make it any less of a good idea for the species it is suitable for.

DeanThorpe · #25 (**permalink**) 13-02-2008, 11:10 AM

I thik the term hobby is fine and good...
When asked by people I only just met what my hobbies are, if I say i dont really have any..whenit later comes up that we keep reptiles, "oh well thats your hobby then" usually follows... so I figure its a fair term, coupled with the fact that people in the "hobby" use it I have not given it too much thought.

How much is too much? its not a number, its when you feel its too much for you, OR when care suffers obviously... best to stop when its "enough" rather than too much i think.

This is why Me and trese have put a stop to anything new, besdies financial problems which in fairness are not really linked to the reptiles although obviously they are an expense and money has been spent purchasing them ,thier vivs etc and ongoing care... its not the reason for the problems.

I dont think "the more reps" or "more species" makes a "proper keeper" in any respect other than the more diverse a collection, be it species or simply individuals or even a variety of differing husbandry requirements.. the more experience you gain/more challenges that you must overcoem present themselves...this also goes with the "fun" of it that adds to it being a hobby....i believe anyway.

For me atleast, its a mix of curiosity and well... erm..I love all our reps... so...erm..I like to love?? and care for/?

Since I was 14 I wanted my own rep shop, yes i forgot about it for a bit as i grew up and realised putting food on the table was the important thing, however you do it..
but if the oppurtunity to have that rep shop...supplemented by our own collection breeding or not..comes up then we will go for it and it is what we want.
Any extra learnings gained from personal keeping is a bonus of course, but I wouldnt think of it as turning our hobby into a business, although its a fair assesment i guess...

erm anyway, too many is when you cannot handle it for one reason or another...but other factors affect what you can and cannot handle so 20 might be too much for you at one stage in your life..where 200+ may be a doddle and not interfere at all at another stage.

Miranda · #26 (**permalink**) 13-02-2008, 11:20 AM

A thought just popped into my head.
Certainly on forums or ina reptile society i think its quite pressuring from others to get more, certainly for me because i only have one corn sometimes feel like im not as gooder snake owner but then i thouht,if i were to take one corn form a big collector and my corn imsure my oscar would be as gooder looked after or in huge collections better looked after. Soon i am gettinga crestie though this is not a pressured thing this is because i love cresties patterns and shapes anda captivity, not because i feel i 'need more'.

I think if my dad were the type of person who said yes to every rep, i would in all honesty have a massive collection. But thankfully my dad will wait a long time before he says yes because when i wanted a hogg isladn boa i was so clsoe but i had a think andi thought 'Do i have money and time an the strength, fro a 6ft snake?' and i decided against it and im very glad i did. While im pestering for something im thinking why wont he say yes but when he says ye sor a final no im grateful for making usr ei know whether i want it or dont want it.

sparkle · #27 (**permalink**) 13-02-2008, 11:49 PM

the word HOBBY.... FANCY.... COLLECTION..... PETS???????

semantics i think>>>???

the other points are perfectly correct rory... i am in coplete agreement with what you have said and it is very well put...but to marginalise the problem to ONE WORD... seems a bit basic and we all know once we over simplify a true debate such as this to a one word semantic issue we will alienate those who use the word HOBBY comfortably but do NOT have too many animals and care for their animals perfectly...

eeji · #28 (**permalink**) 14-02-2008, 12:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rory

I gave this up, because tbh, l grew tired of running that type of business, l had been doing so for some twelve years and it makes you weary as a breeder, long hours, again heart breaking times, ruinously expensive and very taxing on other things - such as relationships, hobbies, social calendars, friends.

This sums it up for me - when it stops being enjoyable and pleasurable, or it becomes a chore, you know its not a hobby any longer and its time to cut down or quit

Is hobby the correct word to use? I don't know the answer to that one

yes - in the sense that it occupies some of my free time with something I can enjoy
no - in the sense that its not something I can put down on Monday, then pick up where I left off next Wednesday

Miranda · #29 (**permalink**) 14-02-2008, 10:42 AM

I think its time to stop when you have room for one more, this means you have time if they fall ill as this would take up the time of one more, or unexpected eggs etc.

bevis892 · #30 (**permalink**) 26-02-2008, 05:23 PM

i think that there are a few hypocrits on here. the reason for this is as follows and i wont name names as dont want to offend, its just my opinion.(im not against animal keeping i've kept allsorts for over 20 years and was also in the pet trade myself.but i am against people who say/preach one thing but do another.)
there are some people on here who run pet shops or are animal dealers, if your concerns on keeping animals inaproprietly are so high why encorage it through the pet/animal trade? we do questionairs and such like i hear you say but any idiot can read a book or search the web and give you the right answers! do any of you actually go and do home cheacks? doubt it because that would be an inconvinience to yourselves (not the animals) and it would not be financialy viable... the bottom line is that alot of pet traders actualy prefer the evil £ to the animals themselves thats why they are in the animal trade!
having dealt with the main animal dealer on this site i have to say i was very disapointed on how the animals were kept especially by a person who freely gives advice.i think it personaly wrong to keep your animals in a shed with no windows or natural light,with a light on only when you go in there.i dont belive that when you keep a large number of plastic storage tubs on top of one another with gerbils in you can possably give those animals the attention they need. cage apon cage with rats and other animals are not going to have the 100% attention they need!
having bought a skunk from a breeder and from a dealer i can see the diference.a repetable breeder knows his animals well and the animals are handled and friendly. a dealer does not know the animals on a personal scale they just seem to know the number of animals and theyer price.the animals are of a nervous disposition as they are past from pillar to post untill theyer destiny comes and picks 1 of a crowd.
having asked advise off one of these dealers about keeping meerkats and other animals i was advised to only get 1 male as they make the best PETS and will remain tame.then other posts have the same person saying how terrible it is to keep these animals singular!!!!!!!! advice? i call it a good sales pitch hoping for money and animal to exchange hands.
i could go on. again just my personal opinion.

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