Dendrobates care sheet

[chrism]

Originally Posted by knighty

If the eco system in the vivarium is up to scratch and copping well with the load put on it then i agree i would and do not disturb them either. But i would never say to any body do not worry about it as the vivarium may not be at a level or standard were it will maintain its self.

I would never tell a beginner that cleaning is not necessarily essential

Surely its better to educate the potential new keepers on husbandry techniques that places minimum stress on a potential delicate animals than tell them to disrupt this eco system that will take a while to get established anyway?

The fact of the matter is that the people that are reading and relying on care sheets are normally new to the hobby and should be started of on the right foot.

Agreed, but as there are so many care sheets out there which one do people follow? What makes people decide which sheet is correct etc.

Also, is it not better to educate them on the best way to do things rather than what they can do so things can survive.

You could keep (and I know people have- often as quarantine) dendros in a RUB- paper towels, and plastic plants, but is that really how they 'should' be cared for?

I know when I was getting into the hobby I looked for people with hands on experience.
Without starting an arguement (do not take this as a personal attack as I do not know you, or your experience), but if I was a newbie looking at your site I might question why the dendro care sheet has others pics not yours. Does this mean you do not own any dendros at present?

EDIT- I've just seen your species list past and present on DB.

The aim of my self and Treefrogworld.com is to bring knowledge across to people knowing that the frogs in there care will then be safe. I cant tell everyone's situation or level of knowledge and am not prepared to bring my name or the websites down by giving out sketchy information that could prove fatal to some ones frogs. Treefrogworld is aimed at frog enthusiasts from beginner to expert and in the near future will be covering a wider range of articles and care sheets.

I like what your trying to do with the site- i'm all for educating people on the plight of amphibians etc, but just want to see animals being cared for, and thats is all Nick, Eleanor etc are trying to do by giving input, but we all got negative or aggressive responses.

[knighty]

I do not agree that large cleans twice a year is a major stress to frogs, or toads. I have done this for many years and have had no problems. Yes i do have a natural viv and no it has not been stripped or cleaned, and to be honest probably never will be. I am being pointed at about disturbing the eco system, but the topic of the care sheet is caring for dendrobates, not creating an eco system. There is another article on the site about vivarium design and construction and that will also feature a "vivarium care sheet" in the next couple of days.

I find your statement - "Also, is it not better to educate them on the best way to do things rather than what they can do so things can survive." Rather contradictory as is not the best way the way that keeps the frogs alive?

The pics on the dendo care sheet were chosen to illustrate the different colours and species, something i do not know many personal collectors that could do that. I think it would be very critical to judge a care sheet on who wrote it and who illustrated it. The difference with my site and many others is i am honest, there are allot of sites out there that have had the care sheets wrote for them and then put them on the site as there own. I am not going to give names and sites but i know this to be 100% true. I have had hands on experience with many many species of frog, toad and newt so i can give advise to people from both a hands on perspective and a theoretical basis. My list on DB is what i have personally owned, and does NOT list the species i have worked with, but if you like i am more than happy to list you the others i have worked with.


[QUOTE=chrism;5080771 just want to see animals being cared for, and thats is all Nick, Eleanor etc are trying to do by giving input, but we all got negative or aggressive responses.[QUOTE]

I did not give aggressive nor negative responses, i just defended my points and did not bow down and agree. No one came across in a help full manor, it was more just thats wrong, no no no, that aint right. Personally i dont think you nick or eleanor can say that your input was put across in a constructive manor, more just three buddies standing for each other.

I like the way on RFUK that as soon as the s*it hits the fan every ones an expert. If they are why dont they start doing what i am and share there knowledge rather than slates others attempts.?? Telling some one they are wrong does not make you an expert, nor does claiming to have species or experiences that are untrue.

[ghastly152]

Originally Posted by knighty

I like the way on RFUK that as soon as the s*it hits the fan every ones an expert.

What species of Dartfrog have you kept Knighty?

[chrism]

Originally Posted by knighty

I do not agree that large cleans twice a year is a major stress to frogs, or toads. I have done this for many years and have had no problems.

Yes i do have a natural viv and no it has not been stripped or cleaned, and to be honest probably never will be.

You've just totally contradicted yourself there. Said you clean, then said you dont and probably wont.

I am being pointed at about disturbing the eco system, but the topic of the care sheet is caring for dendrobates, not creating an eco system.

Surely creating the 'correct' enviroment is part of the animals care though?

The pics on the dendo care sheet were chosen to illustrate the different colours and species, something i do not know many personal collectors that could do that.

Thats just random! Alot of dendro keepers specialise, weather they are into tincs, auratus, thumbnails, pumilio etc, all have various different colours variations etc.

I think it would be very critical to judge a care sheet on who wrote it and who illustrated it.

Not critical. Would you follow every word on a snake care sheet written by someone who keeps lizards? No, probably not as you would question where they got the knoledge, or lack.

[QUOTE=chrism;5080771] just want to see animals being cared for, and thats is all Nick, Eleanor etc are trying to do by giving input, but we all got negative or aggressive responses.[QUOTE]

I did not give aggressive nor negative responses, i just defended my points and did not bow down and agree. No one came across in a help full manor, it was more just thats wrong, no no no, that aint right. Personally i dont think you nick or eleanor can say that your input was put across in a constructive manor, more just three buddies standing for each other.

We all 'tried' to help. Right from my 1st post your were negative.
As for buddies. Yes, I admit I know Nick, most people in the dart world know each other as its a small community of enthusiasts. Never met Eleanor, just know she has had great success with thumbnails.

I like the way on RFUK that as soon as the s*it hits the fan every ones an expert. If they are why dont they start doing what i am and share there knowledge rather than slates others attempts.?? Telling some one they are wrong does not make you an expert, nor does claiming to have species or experiences that are untrue.

Thats just a childish reply there. I've just re-read the post and cant find where anyone has claimed to have or not have species or experiences. I would welcome almost anyone to come and view my animals.

I do not claim to be an expert. I do aks questions, and am always greatful of replies and help. That is how we all learn.

You asked why dont people do what you do and share knoledge rather than slate others:

I try to post on dendro related posts and questions when I can, which is surely sharing my knoledge?!

Others also do share they're knoledge. For example, the care sheets on dendroboard allow for input from keepers / breeders etc, so they are not just one persons opinion.

Anyway- can tell this is going to go downhill into a petty arguement so will leave you to it.

[knighty]

Originally Posted by ghastly152

What species of Dartfrog have you kept Knighty?

Personally i have not kept any in my own collection, but i have worked closely with tincs and leucs when my stepfather had his zoo. It shut down in 1999 due to being privately owned and local competition was too much. The main income was the pets, including fish, lizards, birds, furries and amphibians and prices could not be matched.

[knighty]

Yes they do contradict, but not all my vivariums have been designed and set up in a way were an eco system takes over. Each vivarium should be treated due to its set up and design. Yes the correct husbandry is the main part of the animals care and i have never said any thing different to that. the correct environment does not have to be an eco system style viv, as you said yourself dendrobates have been kept successfully in RUBs, and places such as evacc, keep and breed many species in similar, paper towel settings.

I dont agree that illustrating different morphs in a beginners guide is random, if you read the sheet it is designed for tincs, luecs and auratus.
I take your point on a snake keeper writing a lizard care sheet but this is not the case, im an amphibian keeper that has written an amphibian care sheet. I do not lack the knowledge or experience to take on this task. FACT.

Yes, you did put your points in but it was done in a way which was not going to draw a grateful response. I admit i may of taken some of the posts in the wrong context, but as you addmited in an earlier post it is hard to put things across in a forum in the way you want it to be taken.

I am only worried about animal care, why would i of set up a website with that as the main topic if i didnt? If any one wishes to add or reword a part of the care sheet in a way which they think will make it more helpful please feel free to PM me the paragraph and i will take it into consideration. Personally i think that would be the best way to put positive input into the site.

I do not wish to argue nor do i wish to make enemies. I have seen this as more of a heated discussion between to keepers, and dont want any bad feelings taken by either party. I do however draw the line at the post that was basically just an attempt to flame me rather than put any input in at all (not you).

[earth-tiger]

Originally Posted by knighty

IPersonally i dont think you nick or eleanor can say that your input was put across in a constructive manor, more just three buddies standing for each other.

I am very sorry you feel that way. I wrote my comments with the intention of giving constructive criticism which I believed you had asked for. I was as constructive as I could be and told you what I do with my frogs, thinking you may want to use other people's methods in your caresheet.

I have never met either of the other two, and had never previously spoken to them here or on any other forum, to my knowledge, so they are certainly not 'buddies'. I simply stated that I agreed with their earlier comments on the thread.

I now believe that you did not, in fact, actually want to hear other opinions that disagreed with your own (however nicely they were put across, which I believe they were), so I will not comment further in this thread.

[knighty]

Originally Posted by earth-tiger

so I will not comment further in this thread.

Thats up to you, i am always open to constructive criticism and any one that wishes to be "helpful" can contact me via PM or the contact form at tree frog world.

I just find it very surprising how the Dendrobate experts on DF have a much better opinion of the care sheet and site........... but still the REAL experts always seem to be wrong on rfuk.

Bye

[FrogNick]

Knightly

I can understand how you have taken Chris my "mates" comment the wrong way, but you have to understand that this is what we mostly keep and we do take this hobby seriously. Allot of these PDF keepers are keeping a large selection of dart frog successfully and in most cases they have much more success than any zoo would.

As far as UV light is concerned most keepers don’t worry about this as they have live plants which have a full spectrum tube.

In the instant of Chris I have only met him once at a meet he hosted but he is a dedicated and experience keeper with a large collection of dart frogs. I’m not saying go by everything he says but do take onboard his comments.

We constantly see dart frogs being kept in the wrong conditions mostly this is in zoo’s or pet shops and we do get frustrated about this, as they are not the difficulty to keep once you have the basics right.

I don’t understand your comment below (on who are the real experts)?

“I just find it very surprising how the dendrobate experts on DF have a much better opinion of the care sheet and site........... but still the REAL experts always seem to be wrong on rfuk.”

[knighty]

Dendrobates care sheet - The World Of Frogs