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Old 16-05-2017, 11:58 PM
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Default Selling smooth newts

Hi all,

Only a quick one. Essentially I need clarification on whether smooth newts can legally be sold. Mine are captive bred from WC adults- I cannot find anything saying how many generations need to be kept before they can be sold/traded.

My original plan didn't involve selling any anyway, so it isn't a problem if not, but I have been approached by someone wanting to buy some excess.

Cheers.

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Old 17-05-2017, 01:00 PM
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It's a bit of a grey area. Official advice in the past has gone both ways, some saying that F1 animals are 'captive reared' rather than captive bred, some saying that F1 and F2 are both 'captive bred'.

Everyone seems to agree that F2 animals (offspring from parents which were not wild-caught) can be legally traded.

It's perfectly legal to give them away, so you could do that if you're feeling generous...
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Old 17-05-2017, 02:29 PM
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Wouldn't English Nature be the ones to give a definitive answer ~ in writing. Not over the phone?

As Caleb says; It is a grey area. And these things often depend, for final clarification, on a court case. Ye don't want to be a Test Case, do ye, Fish?
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Old 17-05-2017, 10:04 PM
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Thanks for the replies Caleb and Snappo. I have contacted Natural England via email for further advice.



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Old 17-05-2017, 10:39 PM
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In reality I don't think it will be a problem as I cannot see a market for them. You are probably better releasing the young in your garden .
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Old 20-05-2017, 01:57 AM
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Oh well. Weekend now, Fish my man. Be extremely interesting to see how long it takes for EN to sort out and send you an answer to ye very basic question.

Frankly? I love, and have long thrived on, this sort of thing! It's great fun! I've had some cracking chats with the likes of MAFF and DEFRA.

Even had a pumped up idiot wearing an astonishingly close proximity to a Police uniform, accompanied by a Real, Warranted Police Officer enter my property one time. Demanded that the gavver confiscate certain of my property. Which he did.

Ten minutes later, I've turned up at the front desk. Questioned the poor soul before me about points of statute. Demanded he get the books out. Stood there and quoted chapter and verse, by rote, as he ran his finger over the pages I'd long since memorised. Walked out with my property, five minutes later!

Hendon never prepared them for citizens who'd spent years, poring over the various Acts in the statute books. I was about seventeen at that time, by the way. I didn't digitally film myself and put it on YouTube. Long before all that was even dreamed of. Nor was, or am I, one of these " Free Men " head jobs.

No. I simply like truly understanding 'Laws'. And, my constant, life long quest for such Understanding has, time and again, shown me that those entrusted with the enshrinement, even Enforcement of those laws ..... Often just don't know what they're bloody talking about!!!

Ye've asked the proper authority a simple, fundamental question now, Fish. Absolutely correct thing to do. Now, they must answer. And that answer will stand up in court.

Genuinely be fascinated to see what they say
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Old 20-05-2017, 08:28 PM
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if they are CB from WC british animals, they would NOT be legal to be traded.

They must be 5 generations captive bred, I can't find the link to the legislation, but this applies to all our native amphibians.
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Old 20-05-2017, 11:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by firebelliedfreak View Post
if they are CB from WC british animals, they would NOT be legal to be traded.

They must be 5 generations captive bred, I can't find the link to the legislation, but this applies to all our native amphibians.
Do you have a source for this, that number seems rather pointless?

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Old 20-05-2017, 11:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by el Snappo View Post
Oh well. Weekend now, Fish my man. Be extremely interesting to see how long it takes for EN to sort out and send you an answer to ye very basic question.

Frankly? I love, and have long thrived on, this sort of thing! It's great fun! I've had some cracking chats with the likes of MAFF and DEFRA.

Even had a pumped up idiot wearing an astonishingly close proximity to a Police uniform, accompanied by a Real, Warranted Police Officer enter my property one time. Demanded that the gavver confiscate certain of my property. Which he did.

Ten minutes later, I've turned up at the front desk. Questioned the poor soul before me about points of statute. Demanded he get the books out. Stood there and quoted chapter and verse, by rote, as he ran his finger over the pages I'd long since memorised. Walked out with my property, five minutes later!

Hendon never prepared them for citizens who'd spent years, poring over the various Acts in the statute books. I was about seventeen at that time, by the way. I didn't digitally film myself and put it on YouTube. Long before all that was even dreamed of. Nor was, or am I, one of these " Free Men " head jobs.

No. I simply like truly understanding 'Laws'. And, my constant, life long quest for such Understanding has, time and again, shown me that those entrusted with the enshrinement, even Enforcement of those laws ..... Often just don't know what they're bloody talking about!!!

Ye've asked the proper authority a simple, fundamental question now, Fish. Absolutely correct thing to do. Now, they must answer. And that answer will stand up in court.

Genuinely be fascinated to see what they say image
I did receive an automated email very quickly confirming that I would receive a reply within 10 days.

With the amount of muppets in the various animal keeping hobbies it doesn't surprise me how easy it can be to get on the wrong side of the law, however annoying it may be for the responsible ones. Does this make it fair? Not sure.

Hopefully I will get an answer, whatever the outcome I will keep this thread updated.


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Old 21-05-2017, 09:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by firebelliedfreak View Post
if they are CB from WC british animals, they would NOT be legal to be traded.

They must be 5 generations captive bred, I can't find the link to the legislation, but this applies to all our native amphibians.
The usual rubbish still being regurgitated as fact I see. The reason you cannot find the link is because it doesn't exist.

The relevant legislation is the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1986, a piece of law I'm quite well versed in given my job.
It states that it is illegal to sell wild native species. Provided that the specimens were bred in captivity, they can be sold.
There is "x" generation captive bred referred to.
HOWEVER - the Act is rare as it involves a reverse burden of proof. All specimens are considered wild unless you, the seller, can prove otherwise. In other words, if I am investigating this, I don't need to prove they are wild as the Act assumes they are. It is for you to prove they are captive bred.
So, if you have wild caught adult females that lay eggs, having already mated in the wild, the subsequent young are deemed wild. However, if you have a wild caught pair that mate in captivity, then their young are deemed to be captive bred.
The issue is how you can prove, beyond all reasonable doubt, that the young you are selling are captive bred.
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