RETF clutches

[knighty]

Sorry for the delay, and excuse the long post that is about to follow....

The first 15-20 froglets that left the water had a deformed lower jaw. After speaking to a few people on here, a thread on dendroboard and a highly reconised profesional in the field no concreat conclusion was found. A few suggestions were phosphates in my water, i got a water report from my supplyer and there were no traces and also to be 100% i changed to bottled rather than dechlorinated water. Another suggestion was Chytrid being present in one of the parents, so whilst i teated them i also started to treat the froglets. After a few days of treatment a few died and i was then puzzled. I decided that the best thing i could do was to fid out if A-there was an internal parasite present and B- had the frogs with the deformed lower jaws been able to eat. I done a PM on a freshly deceased froglet and found no signs of parasites but i did find feces and a small amount of food in the stomach. I have continued to treat all newly metomorphasised frogs for Chytrid now as a matter of course, and the froghets that have been strong enough to survive have started to feed and grow well. The partents are doing fine and to be honest the treatment was more prevention than cure as i have had them for years now and have never had a sign of illness. The final theory was over supplymentation in the adults, however i only supplyment twice a week, one of vitamins and one of calcium so this theory is hard to judge but is still a high possibility. One theory that was not considered by my self or others was pollution in the water via disposed birth controll. In the usa there have been many frogs found with extra limbs, missing limbs and even frogs which have changed sex due to estrogen in the breeding water. Could this be effecting the water in our supplys. yes it is a long shot but is pollution not part of the crisis amphibians are facing???

There are still 20 odd tadpoles ready to leave the water and i have high hopes that these will make it. The lower jaw deformities have been less and less drastic with each new frog.

I have all the deceased froglets frozen, and i have stool samples from all my adults due to be tested as soon as "Mr A" can collect them for testing. If or when i find out the cause of this deformatie i will let every one know that that future attemps can be successfull.

[Grond]

Originally Posted by knighty

Sorry for the delay, and excuse the long post that is about to follow....

The first 15-20 froglets that left the water had a deformed lower jaw. After speaking to a few people on here, a thread on dendroboard and a highly reconised profesional in the field no concreat conclusion was found. A few suggestions were phosphates in my water, i got a water report from my supplyer and there were no traces and also to be 100% i changed to bottled rather than dechlorinated water. Another suggestion was Chytrid being present in one of the parents, so whilst i teated them i also started to treat the froglets. After a few days of treatment a few died and i was then puzzled. I decided that the best thing i could do was to fid out if A-there was an internal parasite present and B- had the frogs with the deformed lower jaws been able to eat. I done a PM on a freshly deceased froglet and found no signs of parasites but i did find feces and a small amount of food in the stomach. I have continued to treat all newly metomorphasised frogs for Chytrid now as a matter of course, and the froghets that have been strong enough to survive have started to feed and grow well. The partents are doing fine and to be honest the treatment was more prevention than cure as i have had them for years now and have never had a sign of illness. The final theory was over supplymentation in the adults, however i only supplyment twice a week, one of vitamins and one of calcium so this theory is hard to judge but is still a high possibility. One theory that was not considered by my self or others was pollution in the water via disposed birth controll. In the usa there have been many frogs found with extra limbs, missing limbs and even frogs which have changed sex due to estrogen in the breeding water. Could this be effecting the water in our supplys. yes it is a long shot but is pollution not part of the crisis amphibians are facing???

There are still 20 odd tadpoles ready to leave the water and i have high hopes that these will make it. The lower jaw deformities have been less and less drastic with each new frog.

I have all the deceased froglets frozen, and i have stool samples from all my adults due to be tested as soon as "Mr A" can collect them for testing. If or when i find out the cause of this deformatie i will let every one know that that future attemps can be successfull.

Thanks for the update Knighty.

I bet you're gutted. I am after following their progress from the start and they're not my frogs!

Good luck with the rest. Let us know how you get on.

[pollywog]

I've had people ask about this before, the jaw not forming or being concaved into the mouth seems to be a bit of a problem in these although I've not come across it personally.
Going on your comment about Phosphates. Phosphates allow algae and aquatic vegetation to grow, tadpoles eat algae and algae is a very good source of calcium, as you know calcium is needed to form bones, a lack of phosphates = a lack of algae = a lack of calcium in the tadpoles diet so a good quality food high in algae such as Spirulina is essential. What have you been feeding them?

[knighty]

Originally Posted by pollywog

I've had people ask about this before, the jaw not forming or being concaved into the mouth seems to be a bit of a problem in these although I've not come across it personally.
Going on your comment about Phosphates. Phosphates allow algae and aquatic vegetation to grow, tadpoles eat algae and algae is a very good source of calcium, as you know calcium is needed to form bones, a lack of phosphates = a lack of algae = a lack of calcium in the tadpoles diet so a good quality food high in algae such as Spirulina is essential. What have you been feeding them?

Hi andrew i have been feeding them on a mix of live aquatic plants, Sera Micron and sera pro vit fish flakes. There is algee on the sides of the tank and all over the thermometer. what level of phostphates would you recomend as A member of DB suggest that phosphates can be the cause of this?

Thanks

Dave

[pollywog]

Originally Posted by knighty

Hi andrew i have been feeding them on a mix of live aquatic plants, Sera Micron and sera pro vit fish flakes. There is algee on the sides of the tank and all over the thermometer. what level of phostphates would you recomend as A member of DB suggest that phosphates can be the cause of this?

Thanks

Dave

You're looking somewhere in the region of 1-1.5 ppm, at this level you're going to get moderate algae growth. A higher level of Phosphate as far as I'm aware won't harm the tadpoles but may start to turn the water too green which will cause a drop in the dissolved oxygen causing the water to become stagnant.
Do you know the full water parameters in your rearing tank (ph, kh, gh)?

[knighty]

yes the
ph is 7.2
the Nitrate and nitrite is 0
and the amonia is also 0
I dont know the hardness sorry but i can get it tested.

Is there any way i can add calcium to the water?

[Young996]

Sorry to hear you have lost a good few. I would be interested in what you find out. Best of luck for the rest of the tadpoles.

cheers

[pollywog]

Originally Posted by knighty

I dont know the hardness sorry but i can get it tested.

Is there any way i can add calcium to the water?

The hardness will tell you how much calcium is in the water.


I wouldn't change it now and it shouldn't have an effect on the tadpoles bone development but with future batches you may also like to try a lower pH.


What temperature are you keeping them at?

[knighty]

Originally Posted by pollywog

The hardness will tell you how much calcium is in the water.


I wouldn't change it now and it shouldn't have an effect on the tadpoles bone development but with future batches you may also like to try a lower pH.


What temperature are you keeping them at?

Ok thanks i will get the hardness checked, i take it the harder the water the more calcium?

I am keeping them at 23 degrees.

What PH do you recomend?

[pollywog]

Originally Posted by knighty

Ok thanks i will get the hardness checked, i take it the harder the water the more calcium?

I am keeping them at 23 degrees.

What PH do you recomend?

The GH tells you how much Calcium & Magnesium is in the water, the harder the water the more Calcium & Magnesium ions are present. You want it to be slightly hard somewhere in the region of 100-200ppm.

Water temperature in Nicaragua is 23-27°C, the tadpoles will withstand temperatures a few ° either side of this range but personally I rear mine bang smack in the middle.

Natural pH range would be 6.5-7.5. My personal preferance is for a figure somewhere between 6.5-6.8. The water I use tests neutral straight from the spring and I reduce the pH by adding a few Banana Leaves - the tannins from the leaves also have other benefits. As I said this is just my preferance and shouldn't have any effect on your tadpoles development.


I actually read back through the earlier parts of this thread as I hadn't read it before and I did pick up on a few things;

1. It looks from your pictures that the tadpoles hatched slightly early, the eggs in one of the pictures look like they were starting to mold, this would have encouraged the tads to hatch slightly earlier than usual but isn't uncommon and shouldn't have had any effect on their later development.
2. I understand that you've been providing UVB to the tadpoles? This for me would ring a few alarm bells. The true effects of UVB light on tadpoles is still largely unknown, different studies have had different results; some have found that tadpoles of certain species actively avoid UVB radiation, some studies have found that high levels of UVB radiation has a negative effect on the development of certain tadpoles resulting in higher rates of mortality and or deformities, others have found that some UVB radiation can cause increased growth in certain species of tadpoles, others have found no affect either way. It's not an argument I'm going to get into but me personally I do not provide UVB to any of my tadpoles and would not advise it. Another thing to think about is that UV tubes are often used to sterilise water.