Attention Newt Keepers

[Grandpa]

I have heard through the grapevine that the Iranians are proposing to lobby to have N. kaiseri placed directly on to CITES 1, this would make any animals kept in the USA illegal, and produce an even more complicated situation in the EU, UK included. This could also affect other Neurergus species. The FBH are looking into this matter.

[jc_reptiles]

Keep us posted. A few zoo's and aquariums were looking into sorting a informal studbook not too long ago, so the outcome would be of interst to the collections involved. Could you p.m me any more details you have?

[Saedcantas]

Not sure what the beef is?

This Critically Endangered species is in desperate need of protection from all trade and wild collection, the CITES listing is belated at best in my opinion and cannot come fast enough.

Nomination for a new status of CITES Appendix I does not retrospectively make all captive animals illegal, it does however restrict future collection or trade, demands monitoring of movements between countries and ownerships therefore providing a better overview of a species which now has an estimated ~1000 adults in the wild...

If you cannot prove the origins of your animals or you know them to have been from illegally collected origins, then you may be in some difficulties.
Above all else, overall preservation of a species comes well above our desire to keep them personally for any motive.

[Grandpa]

Nomination for a new status of CITES Appendix I does not retrospectively make all captive animals illegal,

This is not the case in the USA, but obviously we are interested in UK kept specimens, making any thing CITES 1, does have an impact on those people which have them already - try proving they are captive bred and getting the licences and chips required.

OK protection of species in the wild is good, but what happens to specimens kept in the UK that are then seized and owners fined, because of this action?

[Saedcantas]

Firstly, CITES I kaiseri newts would not require microchipping.

No one would have their kaiseri seized or removed from their possession, even if you had difficulty proving the origins of the animals, the only thing this would hinder would be your ability to move them out of the UK or sell their offspring. You could however continue to gift the offspring to other worthy potential breeders accompanied by a DEFRA advised statement confirming that they are F1 offspring of unknown origin adults.

Take a look at the situation and difficulties faced by keepers of other CITES I animals without original paperwork, this should give you an idea of what might really happen. A look through topics about Dumerils boas, Sanzinias or Jamaican Boas will show you that people frequently come up against lack of evidence but you will find no one who has had a pet animal removed from them nor will you be fined.

The only thing this really removes for current UK keepers who have no proof of origin is your ability to benefit commercially from these animals...

I've said it already and I'll say it again, the right of these animals to be better protected from illegal trade and survive is more important (in my view) than the desire of hobbyists to keep them for any reason.

[Grandpa]

I've said it already and I'll say it again, the right of these animals to be better protected from illegal trade and survive is more important (in my view) than the desire of hobbyists to keep them for any reason.[/QUOTE]


Does that include captive breeding? After all, an aid to keeping a species going is captive breeding - This takes the strain off wild populations.
But each to their own, If you feel that this species needs CITES 1 classification, and you don't keep it, fine.

Remember a lot of good work with a variety of species has been done by private keepers - its not only the large institutions that carry out conservation work.

[Saedcantas]

Originally Posted by Grandpa

Does that include captive breeding? After all, an aid to keeping a species going is captive breeding - This takes the strain off wild populations.
But each to their own, If you feel that this species needs CITES 1 classification, and you don't keep it, fine.

Remember a lot of good work with a variety of species has been done by private keepers - its not only the large institutions that carry out conservation work.

As I said mate, anyone breeding these animals for the love of it right now who cannot produce proof of legal importation can still gift their offspring after the species is elevated to CITES I, to contribute to creating a stable captive population and remove the demand for illegally collected WC specimens.

If the joy of keeping and the love of this species is what matters to you, I have no doubt that no one will stop you doing that, the only thing you won't be able to do if you cannot provide proof, is make money from them legally.

If I were you or the FBH, I'd be advising people to invest time in tracing the origins of their animals to ensure that you can provide the necessary evidence and statements of importers when the time comes.
If you cannot provide proof of legal importation then the fact of the matter is, your keeping of those animals may have directly contributed to the massive decline of a species and encouraged illegal collection and habitat disturbance.

The insitutions that have been working on setting up a new studbook and new conservation initiatives for this species will not be hindered by the elevation to CITES I. A lot of good work can be achieved by private keepers indeed, husbandry knowledge and new techniques can be learnt, breeding breakthroughs etc, but direct contribution to the wild population of this species can only be achieved responsibly by large institutions.
There are important roles to play by both private keepers and institutions here.

I think you need to stop worrying and be realistic, CITES I Herps are exceptionally rarely confiscated from private hands. IUCN guidelines state that such animals must be "disposed" of in certain ways (disposal does not mean euthanasia in this case), generally in the way most beneficial to that species, they are rarely if ever euthanased if confiscated, more likely housed with institutions or specialist private breeders. So there you go, all you have to do is keep your head down, care for your animals as you have been doing and do as much as you can to contribute to their flourishing in captivity and I'm certain no one will have any cause to come and take your pets away.

Conservation is my day in day out I'm an active conservationist and hobbyist. I'm sorry that the possibility of this species being elevated to CITES I gives you cause for worry, but do you honestly place this above the survival of the species as a whole and the benefits of greater protection???

I don't hold these options because I don't happen to keep the species so therefore I couldn't care less about the difficulties current keepers may face.
I hold them because morally and ethically protection of species should always come 100% first above the desires and pleasures of hobbyist keepers.
There is a point where we have to call an end to the selfishness of our enjoyment of keeping animals because we feel like it, if the survival in the wild of a species, any species depends on the prevention of it's keeping in private hands or the confiscation of ***non-provable*** captive animals, then so be it.


Lotte***

[ed177]

thx keep us posted

[Chris Newman]

The immediate addition of N. kaiseri to App. I conflicts directly with all general principles of CITES, and does no more to protect the species from illegal trade than adding the species to App. II. It does how have very significant implications for keepers. In the USA possession of N. kaiseri will become illegal over night due to the Lacy Act. Here in the UK will have significant implication for private keepers as COTES demand you prove the animals were acquired lawfully, something that is impossible so all keepers will be a be in fear of having there animals seized – something which happens all to often.

[Alex M]

Originally Posted by Chris Newman

The immediate addition of N. kaiseri to App. I conflicts directly with all general principles of CITES, and does no more to protect the species from illegal trade than adding the species to App. II. It does how have very significant implications for keepers. In the USA possession of N. kaiseri will become illegal over night due to the Lacy Act. Here in the UK will have significant implication for private keepers as COTES demand you prove the animals were acquired lawfully, something that is impossible so all keepers will be a be in fear of having there animals seized – something which happens all to often.

Whilst we're roughly on the subject Chris, have you heard of DEFRA actually doing anything regarding the EPS legislation?. I had a conversation with a DEFRA employee over several emails explaining that i had various European herps, and they only raised interest/concern over my WC Mauremys caspica - which i've since sold. It seems telling them my other species were CB was enough!. If i've got my facts correct from memory, David Bird informed me wildlife crime police officers are not likely to confiscate etc any non-native European herps held in UK collections, and many European species are still being sold openly and freely in shops etc - it basically seems a shambles legislation.... What's the latest? Is it really being upheld? As someone who works in the trade i'd be very interested to hear any new information you may have.

Cheers
Al