Starting a Venomous snake collection.

[wildlifewarrior]

Originally Posted by ViperLover

Anybody know of any local breeders to me where I can purchase a Mangrove snake

you would be better off listening to the dwa keepers on here,reading up on books and so on, than spending all your time trying to keep a mangrove alive and hydrated with B3,B6 and B12 vitamins and constant assit feeding

[tengalms]

Originally Posted by paulrimmer69

o dear, this just goes to prove my point on the other thread lol!

Yep,with you on that one paul.

Roy.

[Gaboon]

About this time last year I was looking into getting a DWAL, after i5 years nearly constant reptile keeping I thought I was ready for a single Bothriechis schlegelii. What made me change my mind is getting tagged by my 6ft carpet completely out of the blue. Ive been tagged many many times but this was different as he took me by complete surprise as he is normally so docile. He went from his normal resting position to strike, bite and retraction in what must of been less than a second. If he was a Bothriechis schlegelii I may not be dead now but I would have been on my ass to say the least. I dont believe at the age of 16 (or 18 for that matter) anyone is capable of realising how real the threat of death is from one of these animals. There are plenty of beautiful and interesting harmless snakes avaliable to keep .

Just read and read and read and read.

[Mark O'Shea]

Keeping venomous snakes is a very serious issue in the UK. There are some very experienced and professional keepers, and some who are not quite as skilled or inclined to listen to advice from older or wiser persons.
I was directed to this thread by a concerned member of the forum and would like to make a few factual comments to dispell some myths.

Snakebite deaths in the UK.
In the entire 20thC there were only twelve deaths from adder bites and the last exotic snakebite fatality in the UK was even earlier, in 1897. It was a zoo death, the curator of reptiles at London Zoo arrived early for work, still under the influence from the night before, and thought it would be a good idea to kiss an Indian cobra. He died one hour after the zoo opened.
There has not been an exotic snakebite death in the UK, private or zoo, since then (although it has been close on several occasions) yet they happen with some regularity in the US. What do you imagine would happen in someone died of a rattler or cobra bite in the UK ?
A zoo death might not have a national effect but the death of a private keeper or innocent bystander would probably bring about a national ban on the keeping of venomous snakes, licensed or otherwise. So it is beholden upon the private venomous snake community to police itself, before someone else does it for you. If someone is doing something silly, and you value your collection, they pull them up short for your own benefit as much as there's.

Boomslang
The boomslang was considered potentially dangerous but whether or not it could kill a human was not confirmed until 1957 when Karl Patterson Schmidt, the eminent herpetologist at the Field Museum in Chicago, was tagged by a small specimen he was examining. He went home feeling unwell but called in to say he would be at work in a day or so. He never returned, it took three days but he died, probably of a brain haemorrhage since extensive internal bleeding is often the result of boomslang envenoming. At the time there was no boomslang antivenom so Schmidt was pretty much doomed from the onset.
There is antivenom now, in fact when I was in J'burg in 1997 I met the horse that they use for raising the monospecific boomslang antivenom, note I said "the horse", there was only one for boomslang (there may be more now). Someone on this thread said it was difficult for a boomslang to bite you. Not so, they have short wide mouths and their fangs are both large and positioned rather well forward for a rear-fanged snake (check out the image on p.15 of my Venomous Snakes of the World if you don't believe me). The venom is designed to deal with chameleons and weaver birds but unfortunately it also has a seriously deleterious effect on us. Bites are extremely serious, even from small specimens. Steve Spawls though he had been tagged when working in Botswana many years ago and immediately leapt into his Land Rover and drove over the border into S.Africa. Why? Because boomslang antivenom is in short supply, they are not easy to milk and antivenom is often only available in S.Africa. There may or may not be boomslang antivenom in the UK but my advice is take extreme care with these snakes as a death may be more likely following a bite, than from a cobra or a rattlesnake.
There are venomous snakes for which antivenom is either in short supply or does not yet exist (and may never) and a snakebite from one of these species, even with our advanced health care system, may not have a happy ending.

It is current medical opinion (and by that I mean the opinion of the most qualified medical snakebite experts) that the Aruba Island rattlesnake has a complex venom which may not be addressed by any crotaline antivenom currently available, not even the antivenom from Mexico, Costa Rica or Brazil intended for tropical rattlesnakes. Their advise is that this species not even be kept in zoos, with all their safety nets and facilities, let alone in private collections. I kept and bred this species in the 1990's but I would take this advice on board myself and think very very carefully about including this species in our collection at West Midland Safari Park, and then probably decide against it.

I am sure there are other aspects of this thread on which I could comment but that will do for now.

Regards, Mark O'Shea

Incidentally I rarely get involved in forums but when I do I generally avoid pseudonyms. If I have something to say about a subject I will say it with my voice and in my name.

[Gaboon]

Interesting stuff O' Shear!

Would you say keeping them is more dangerous than going out and chasing them? I mean because they are essentially "cornered". By chasing I mean working with them in the wild.

[Chuckwalla]

Originally Posted by ViperLover

Ok.....No need to be rude. Thankyou.

We all make mistakes

Hiya buddy but do not take this the wrong way with a statement like "we all make mistakes" you really need to learn a lot about the venomous side of the "hobby" as if you make a mistake there you are going to be in a lot of trouble.

As the others have said, get your nose in some good books, and start with more aggressive snakes, mangroves, FWC, bulls you will learn a lot, and ther experianced guys on here with help you with your questions.
Immaturity is n age thing thats why you have to be adult prior to being issued with DWA.
Again mate don take it the worng way, just trying to help you out. The gusy on here know there stuff, so heed their advise when given.

[reticmadness79]

Originally Posted by Chuckwalla

Hiya buddy but do not take this the wrong way with a statement like "we all make mistakes" you really need to learn a lot about the venomous side of the "hobby" as if you make a mistake there you are going to be in a lot of trouble.

As the others have said, get your nose in some good books, and start with more aggressive snakes, mangroves, FWC, bulls you will learn a lot, and ther experianced guys on here with help you with your questions.
Immaturity is n age thing thats why you have to be adult prior to being issued with DWA.
Again mate don take it the worng way, just trying to help you out. The gusy on here know there stuff, so heed their advise when given.

Couldnt of said it better myself,i myself have handled many venomous snakes more the elapids,but did alot of research 1st for a few yrs,got hold of an evil false water and progressed from their,you need to make sure your prepared and understand what your dealing with before getting hands on

[ViperLover]

Originally Posted by Mark O'Shea

Keeping venomous snakes is a very serious issue in the UK. There are some very experienced and professional keepers, and some who are not quite as skilled or inclined to listen to advice from older or wiser persons.
I was directed to this thread by a concerned member of the forum and would like to make a few factual comments to dispell some myths.

Snakebite deaths in the UK.
In the entire 20thC there were only twelve deaths from adder bites and the last exotic snakebite fatality in the UK was even earlier, in 1897. It was a zoo death, the curator of reptiles at London Zoo arrived early for work, still under the influence from the night before, and thought it would be a good idea to kiss an Indian cobra. He died one hour after the zoo opened.
There has not been an exotic snakebite death in the UK, private or zoo, since then (although it has been close on several occasions) yet they happen with some regularity in the US. What do you imagine would happen in someone died of a rattler or cobra bite in the UK ?
A zoo death might not have a national effect but the death of a private keeper or innocent bystander would probably bring about a national ban on the keeping of venomous snakes, licensed or otherwise. So it is beholden upon the private venomous snake community to police itself, before someone else does it for you. If someone is doing something silly, and you value your collection, they pull them up short for your own benefit as much as there's.

Boomslang
The boomslang was considered potentially dangerous but whether or not it could kill a human was not confirmed until 1957 when Karl Patterson Schmidt, the eminent herpetologist at the Field Museum in Chicago, was tagged by a small specimen he was examining. He went home feeling unwell but called in to say he would be at work in a day or so. He never returned, it took three days but he died, probably of a brain haemorrhage since extensive internal bleeding is often the result of boomslang envenoming. At the time there was no boomslang antivenom so Schmidt was pretty much doomed from the onset.
There is antivenom now, in fact when I was in J'burg in 1997 I met the horse that they use for raising the monospecific boomslang antivenom, note I said "the horse", there was only one for boomslang (there may be more now). Someone on this thread said it was difficult for a boomslang to bite you. Not so, they have short wide mouths and their fangs are both large and positioned rather well forward for a rear-fanged snake (check out the image on p.15 of my Venomous Snakes of the World if you don't believe me). The venom is designed to deal with chameleons and weaver birds but unfortunately it also has a seriously deleterious effect on us. Bites are extremely serious, even from small specimens. Steve Spawls though he had been tagged when working in Botswana many years ago and immediately leapt into his Land Rover and drove over the border into S.Africa. Why? Because boomslang antivenom is in short supply, they are not easy to milk and antivenom is often only available in S.Africa. There may or may not be boomslang antivenom in the UK but my advice is take extreme care with these snakes as a death may be more likely following a bite, than from a cobra or a rattlesnake.
There are venomous snakes for which antivenom is either in short supply or does not yet exist (and may never) and a snakebite from one of these species, even with our advanced health care system, may not have a happy ending.

It is current medical opinion (and by that I mean the opinion of the most qualified medical snakebite experts) that the Aruba Island rattlesnake has a complex venom which may not be addressed by any crotaline antivenom currently available, not even the antivenom from Mexico, Costa Rica or Brazil intended for tropical rattlesnakes. Their advise is that this species not even be kept in zoos, with all their safety nets and facilities, let alone in private collections. I kept and bred this species in the 1990's but I would take this advice on board myself and think very very carefully about including this species in our collection at West Midland Safari Park, and then probably decide against it.

I am sure there are other aspects of this thread on which I could comment but that will do for now.

Regards, Mark O'Shea

Incidentally I rarely get involved in forums but when I do I generally avoid pseudonyms. If I have something to say about a subject I will say it with my voice and in my name.

Thankyou very much Mr O'Shea...That information opened up a few port holes that needed to be opened.

I am very interested in keeping these venomous reptiles but I am looking for the experience before I establish my own collection.

Any chance I could get incontact with you in the near future to discuss this further? Thank you

[naja]

Hi guys

this is my first time on the forum, some of you will recognise my username from another forum. Id just like to agree with what people are saying about doing as much research as poss before starting to keep hots. The problem is that some people are not always fortunate enough to be in the rite place at the rite time when it comes to finding a mentor. I was fortunate enough to work at a big zoo collection which had a big reptile collection with quit a few hots and a boss with 25yrs experiance in keeping them so was able to do my training there. But i do think that some of the people who want to start out in keeping hots come on here for advise or state a fact that they may feel they were told by a reliable source and get slated and taken down by the so called big guns. Who infact arent all that anyway. I have to say i agree with Mark o'shea about the boomslangs. I had a 7ft monster here at the shop once and at times could be a real handle. As for copperheads i have only kept 2 specimens as elapids are my main interest. They were two completely differant animals to handle, one would just bounce off the hook and be over the side of the tub in seconds where as the other is one of the most docile snakes i have ever kept. Just a few thoughts of mine anyway!

[naja]

Although i agree with starting to keep aggressive colubrids is a good way to start learning for venomous, its what i did myself but to me there is still always the thought in the back of your mind that it isnt actually venomous and its easy to get into a habit of cutting corners and getting into bad habits. Its easy to lack concentration which you cant afford to do when keeping these types of snakes. I think that when you are learning to keep venomous you start from scratch forgetting about keeping non-venomous and just listen to everything that the person who is showing you says. The bottom line is that things such as reading help alot but you wont start learning how to handle until you start handling yourself.

This isnt a dig at anyone just simply some thoughts from my tiny little brain