Starting a Venomous snake collection.

[Mark O'Shea]

Well everybody, I think it is time to ease up on young Viperlover, he seems to have gotten the message and is taking heed. So fair play to him for shelving the venomous snake idea until he is much older, wiser and more experienced, it takes a lot to curb youthful enthusiasm as the autobiographical posts by some other members have shown.

By the way, SW-Morelia, sorry for the renaming, slip of the keyboard.
But a correction for you too, I'm afraid.
I do not recall being at uni with the person you mention and he certainly is not my friend! Leading expert on crocodilians, LOL !
A few years these two reported PH quotes were doing the rounds, from his days of doing raids on reptile keepers for the RSPCA:
"we seized the spectacled caiman because it was not being kept in conditions conducive with its native Papua New Guinea" and "why is the false water cobra the only cobra not on the DWAA?"
If these quotes are true they are quite damning.

I was pleased to see someone praise John Foden as a help in their past, he was a long time friend of mine right from when I was a kid and turned up to see him with a sick dice snake. Although John was only a few years older he seemed much older because he was a "zoo keeper"!
His passing in 1999 was a very sad day for British reptile keeping.

I would like to make one observation which Viperlover might find food for thought.
There are herpetoculturists and herpetologists.

The former keeps and breeds reptiles and amphibians, the latter studies them. The former can build up a nice big collection, the latter often cannot. The reason, to really study reptiles in the full sense of the word 'study' goes beyond devouring every book on the subject and really entails studying hard at school and then going to university to get a degree to enable you to get to grips with the more complicated subjects of population biology, systematics and taxonomy (naming species), venom composition and effects, biogeography and distribution, conservation and habitat management, morphology, etc. etc. etc. the list is endless.

If that is the route you ultimately want to take then the very fact that in a few years you might be off to university means either you will have to slim down your collection to something your parents will agree to take on in your absence, or part with it completely. I was fortunate, I did my degree as a mature student at a poly/uni near my home so I continued to keep my collection, and I was not quite a penniless student having works for 7years and there were grants then, not loans, but for most people today that is not an option.

Then with a new degree under your belt and a heap of debt to look forward to, you have to job hunt or apply for higher degrees or research projects, maybe overseas, and in all these instances a large collection of herps might have to be sacrificed. Higher education is a great way forwards but often you cannot have everything and sacrifices have to be made. I personally have not kept reptiles at home for longer as you have been breathing air Viperlover, but then my snakes etc all live at the Safari Park. I travel a great deal so this is one sacrifice I am prepared to make to enable me to encounter hundreds of fascinating herps in their own countries.

You might be able to farm out a few boas and pythons, but not cobras.
Jasper1's RAF career seems to have had a similar effect on his collection at least for a period of time.

On the python front, Viperlover, you are thinking straight. Big pythons can be dangerous, retics but even Burms. There have been fatalities in the US from both species. One American lad died because his Burm, which he allowed to roam his bedroom, got into bed with him and hugged him too tightly. These big species (anacondas, African rocks too) are fine for serious big snake enthusiasts and zoos but they require more space and quite frankly they generally just sit there and wonder when their next meal is going to arrive. Being the same size as the meal is not a great idea because they can kill you quicker than almost any venomous snake. And they move more quickly and strike a whole hell of a lot further than many people realise.

I would say, and I am sure most of the forum members would agree, that there are loads and loads of really cool smaller species. In your shoes I would get some experience with easy to keep species like corns and then decide on something to really get your teeth into, carpets, spotted pythons, milksnakes, something that are small enough to allow you to keep several pairs and breed them, sell the offspring (captive breeding is conservation) and obtain something else you would like to work with. Write up your successes (and failures) for the herp fraternity, join a society (IHS), meet more people and in a year or two you will be giving advice (like some of the posters who are only a couple of years older than you) rather than having to take it all.
Many people pride themselves on first UK breeding records. I managed Aruba Is. rattlers and Ornate cantil firsts in the 1990s and was quite chuffed, although I have less time for such things these days and my colleagues do most of the day to day husbandry. Yes, those were venomous, but somebody managed to maintain mandarin ratsnakes and green catsnakes successfully for the first time and were rightfully proud of themselves. You could be too.

If your circumstances are right in 10 years you might, or might not, decide to keep venomous snakes. Either way, you will be much better equiped to make the decision and you will look back at this episode as an important lesson.

To become more experienced you have to stay alive.

Regards

Mark

[SW-morelia]

Originally Posted by Mark O'Shea

By the way, SW-Morelia, sorry for the renaming, slip of the keyboard.

No probs... I do it all the time Mike

Originally Posted by Mark O'Shea

But a correction for you too, I'm afraid.
I do not recall being at uni with the person you mention and he certainly is not my friend! Leading expert on crocodilians, LOL !
A few years these two reported PH quotes were doing the rounds, from his days of doing raids on reptile keepers for the RSPCA:
"we seized the spectacled caiman because it was not being kept in conditions conducive with its native Papua New Guinea" and "why is the false water cobra the only cobra not on the DWAA?"
If these quotes are true they are quite damning.



Regards

Mark

Seems he may be frugal with the events and so I miss interpreted his exact meaning.....
Though you have heard of him, so thats something

[ViperLover]

Originally Posted by Mark O'Shea

Well everybody, I think it is time to ease up on young Viperlover, he seems to have gotten the message and is taking heed. So fair play to him for shelving the venomous snake idea until he is much older, wiser and more experienced, it takes a lot to curb youthful enthusiasm as the autobiographical posts by some other members have shown.

By the way, SW-Morelia, sorry for the renaming, slip of the keyboard.
But a correction for you too, I'm afraid.
I do not recall being at uni with the person you mention and he certainly is not my friend! Leading expert on crocodilians, LOL !
A few years these two reported PH quotes were doing the rounds, from his days of doing raids on reptile keepers for the RSPCA:
"we seized the spectacled caiman because it was not being kept in conditions conducive with its native Papua New Guinea" and "why is the false water cobra the only cobra not on the DWAA?"
If these quotes are true they are quite damning.

I was pleased to see someone praise John Foden as a help in their past, he was a long time friend of mine right from when I was a kid and turned up to see him with a sick dice snake. Although John was only a few years older he seemed much older because he was a "zoo keeper"!
His passing in 1999 was a very sad day for British reptile keeping.

I would like to make one observation which Viperlover might find food for thought.
There are herpetoculturists and herpetologists.

The former keeps and breeds reptiles and amphibians, the latter studies them. The former can build up a nice big collection, the latter often cannot. The reason, to really study reptiles in the full sense of the word 'study' goes beyond devouring every book on the subject and really entails studying hard at school and then going to university to get a degree to enable you to get to grips with the more complicated subjects of population biology, systematics and taxonomy (naming species), venom composition and effects, biogeography and distribution, conservation and habitat management, morphology, etc. etc. etc. the list is endless.

If that is the route you ultimately want to take then the very fact that in a few years you might be off to university means either you will have to slim down your collection to something your parents will agree to take on in your absence, or part with it completely. I was fortunate, I did my degree as a mature student at a poly/uni near my home so I continued to keep my collection, and I was not quite a penniless student having works for 7years and there were grants then, not loans, but for most people today that is not an option.

Then with a new degree under your belt and a heap of debt to look forward to, you have to job hunt or apply for higher degrees or research projects, maybe overseas, and in all these instances a large collection of herps might have to be sacrificed. Higher education is a great way forwards but often you cannot have everything and sacrifices have to be made. I personally have not kept reptiles at home for longer as you have been breathing air Viperlover, but then my snakes etc all live at the Safari Park. I travel a great deal so this is one sacrifice I am prepared to make to enable me to encounter hundreds of fascinating herps in their own countries.

You might be able to farm out a few boas and pythons, but not cobras.
Jasper1's RAF career seems to have had a similar effect on his collection at least for a period of time.

On the python front, Viperlover, you are thinking straight. Big pythons can be dangerous, retics but even Burms. There have been fatalities in the US from both species. One American lad died because his Burm, which he allowed to roam his bedroom, got into bed with him and hugged him too tightly. These big species (anacondas, African rocks too) are fine for serious big snake enthusiasts and zoos but they require more space and quite frankly they generally just sit there and wonder when their next meal is going to arrive. Being the same size as the meal is not a great idea because they can kill you quicker than almost any venomous snake. And they move more quickly and strike a whole hell of a lot further than many people realise.

I would say, and I am sure most of the forum members would agree, that there are loads and loads of really cool smaller species. In your shoes I would get some experience with easy to keep species like corns and then decide on something to really get your teeth into, carpets, spotted pythons, milksnakes, something that are small enough to allow you to keep several pairs and breed them, sell the offspring (captive breeding is conservation) and obtain something else you would like to work with. Write up your successes (and failures) for the herp fraternity, join a society (IHS), meet more people and in a year or two you will be giving advice (like some of the posters who are only a couple of years older than you) rather than having to take it all.
Many people pride themselves on first UK breeding records. I managed Aruba Is. rattlers and Ornate cantil firsts in the 1990s and was quite chuffed, although I have less time for such things these days and my colleagues do most of the day to day husbandry. Yes, those were venomous, but somebody managed to maintain mandarin ratsnakes and green catsnakes successfully for the first time and were rightfully proud of themselves. You could be too.

If your circumstances are right in 10 years you might, or might not, decide to keep venomous snakes. Either way, you will be much better equiped to make the decision and you will look back at this episode as an important lesson.

To become more experienced you have to stay alive.

Regards

Mark

Thankyou very much Mark....

I have been thinking not to rush into Venomous over the last few days...I have been doing my homework researching snakebite and the results were shockingly horrific, bad and deadly. Even the professionals such as yourself and other herpetologists screw up. So a novice would be practically attempting suicide by keeping these animals. I watched the video time and time again when you were handling the Zebra Spitter...Gorgeous specimen, but not my cup of tea for another 15 years. These animals aren't like the family pet....They WILL NOT give you a kiss on the face.....A love-bite...Maybe.

I would really like to come and check out you're reptile safari park, and possibly a guided....BUT Un-contacted tour of you're snakeroom (Meaning I look but don't touch) and a chance to meet up with you and discuss Herps.

Any information on this would be appreciated and gladly would be recieved in a Personal Message.

What herps do you keep at the reptile safari park?? They look very interesting but out of my league to play with as of yet.

[exoticsadmirer]

Originally Posted by ViperLover

I would really like to come and check out you're reptile safari park, and possibly a guided....BUT Un-contacted tour of you're snakeroom (Meaning I look but don't touch) and a chance to meet up with you and discuss Herps.
What herps do you keep at the reptile safari park?? They look very interesting but out of my league to play with as of yet.

Do you mean Mark O'shea's reptile world at west midland safari park? because if you do it is really worth the Visit and i am thinking of going next year for my 18th to have a look the reptiles specimens i have been told about by friends say they are amazing but i'll believe that when i get there.

[ViperLover]

Originally Posted by exoticsadmirer

Do you mean Mark O'shea's reptile world at west midland safari park? because if you do it is really worth the Visit and i am thinking of going next year for my 18th to have a look the reptiles specimens i have been told about by friends say they are amazing but i'll believe that when i get there.

Any place that has the balls to keep a Papuan Taipan has got to be amazing....Just the thought of seeing a King Cobra drives me there!

Hands down, they have to be my favourite Elapid

[Genseric]

You should count yourself lucky mate... you are getting A1 advise from some of the best and well know (and respected) people we have in this country... something not many can say!

Welcome to our world... we don't have many members, but we cover the globe

[exoticsadmirer]

Ophiophagus hannah does have to be one of my favourite snakes but my current eye is set on a Orthriophis taeniurus spp if thats right then upping my game like i said i planned out to DWA put another genus of snakes(if it's genus i might be wrong) catches my eye i'll put DWA plans on hold or cancel them all together.

[Mark O'Shea]

Dear All, I don't mind giving advice and I encourage the keeping of reptile for many reasons to lengthy to go into now. The right species, for the right reasons, in the right conditions.

I would not be where I am today if I had not asked questions, read books and taken advice when I was younger, but I really do not have time to be entering into a one-to-one, no offense but I have a publishing deadline coming towards me like a fast-moving train in a tunnel (I've already written 86,000 words for the first of three books), plus deadlines for scientific papers I am working on with colleagues overseas, plus, plus, plus!
It makes a bit of a diversion to add something to the forum but I cannot devote too much time to it or I will fall behind.

As for what we keep at WMSP, off the top of my head: western diamondbacks, eastern diamondback, ornate cantil, gaboon, & rhino vipers, West African carpet viper, Saharan sand viper, white-lipped pitviper, snouted cobra, Thai cobra, king cobra, Papuan taipan, reticulated & amethystine pythons, common boa, green anaconda, alligator, various caiman, W.African dwarf, Nile and Cuban crocs, some lizards including crocodile skinks and monkey-tail, other nonvenomous snakes, various frogs etc. Not everything is on show, nor will it be at any one time. The collection is designed to illustrate species I have featured in my films (king cobra, anacondas etc), or done research on or capture for venom research (Papuan taipan), although be clear, none of the specimens in the collection were captured and brought back by me, I don't do that. We are very pleased with our Record Breakers exhibits ie. king, retic, anaconda, and we have more educational material around the walls than any collection I have visited including large boards of Snakebite, the Amphibian Crisis and British Reptiles.

Of course there are also the Reserves, between 4-5miles of roads with lions, tigers, while lions, white tigers, leopards, cheetahs, African hunting dogs, timber wolves, elephant, white rhino, water buffalo, giraffe, camels etc. and off the Reserves, sealions and hippos (not together of course) Seaquarium, Creepy Crawlies and Twilight World with free-flying bats and an aye-aye. Check out www.wmsp.co.uk for more information. In the good weather you can make a full day of a trip to the Park, but bring a car, they are handy for going through the lion reserves.

I am there for a certain number of days a year, doing encounters and signing my books. My colleagues tend to know if I am due in or whether I am overseas, so it is worth checking if you particularly wanted to meet me. Guided tours behind the scenes are not as easy to arrange as they once were due to the more stringent rules that govern zoos.

Okay, right now I must get back to proof-reading the book, I hope you understand (and before anyone asks - Lizards).


Mark

[leecb0]

Originally Posted by Mark O'Shea

I do not recall being at uni with the person you mention and he certainly is not my friend! Leading expert on crocodilians, LOL !

I did find this very amusing and wonderd if someone would say what i was thinking



[/QUOTE]I was pleased to see someone praise John Foden as a help in their past, he was a long time friend of mine right from when I was a kid and turned up to see him with a sick dice snake. Although John was only a few years older he seemed much older because he was a "zoo keeper"!
His passing in 1999 was a very sad day for British reptile keeping.

[/QUOTE]
In my opinion one of the finest human beings i have ever had the pleasure of knowing an awsome Herper, Knowledge and experience i one day would love to emulate, and one of the most eclectic and envious collections i have seen. And i miss the snake nights at the zoo. I also did meet you at his funeral, ive never been one for the scene and getting about within the herp world have always stayed private and kept my collections and thoughts and ideas to myself. But i did run a breakaway reptile rescue from PH about 15/10 years ago

[exoticsadmirer]

ty for the help Mark i must say you should defo get back to the books.