APH breeders- breeding and canibalism?

[fantapants]

i have just noticed on another thread that somebody said they had never had a case of canibalism when breeding their hogs. from what i understood from nosing on the net, its a big thing for alot of people. so from the people that breed/have bred hogs- has it ever happened to you? how did you discourage it? do you have a theory as to what causes it? Now in the past i have bred mice and rats and they never ate any of their babies either even thought i was under the impression that its common to them too.

now i have no plans for babies in the immeadiate future i am just curious. my little male is tiny compared to my girls so probably wouldnt be able to climb on anyway!

[Tan]

Infantaside is not the same

[fantapants]

i understand that infanticide is he mum killing the babies as there is something wrong with them (please correct me if i am wrong).... but how often does the mum eat her babies ? as i said i never had any issues with that when i bred rats and mice but just wanted to get an idea on how common it was or if it was over exagerated.

[Tan]

Sorry, I hit the wrong button there. I was pointing out Infantaside or filial cannibalism are not the same as canabilism. I have found an increasing number of people calling falial canabalism this which seems to be the first step in the confusion of understanding why this happens.

If you look at the animal kingdom infantaside is common in all animals ranging from spiders to humans. It is not only done by females as some also believe but in the case of the hedgehog where the male plays no part in the raising it is the female obviosuly who murders the offspring.

I think to help avoid this tragedy you need to understand the animals and their behavour. Yes you can have a backdoor breeder produce in filthy conditions using untamed animals as they have never been handled properly and treated like machines with no campassion given but this is just creating a higher possability of this happening. Also take into account how the animal feels. It is more likely to happen with a first litter. This would be down to the entire event being new to the mother. Stress also plays a part which can be enduced by the babies and the surroundings which in turn lead to the babies death. We are talking about whole litter distruction and not one or two offspring being killed as this is another subject.

For the most part if the female is well handled and friendly and handled while pregnant and spoken to alot both in and out of the cage anytime your near the cage and you intrude on her space as in taking her from her bed when sleeping it all helps prepare her (I do this with all the boys too, it just means I have full access to them when ever I need it and they all know I'm no threat BUT some still huff a little when the initial pick up is made and tbh it is not nessisary with mum to be but I find it can help). Now obviosuly they all differ, this is the general rule, the more time invested the more you get back but many people have grumpyish mothers labour, birth and wean just fine even with them there.

I have not had to deal with this even with wild hedgies who have given birth when we have taken them in as some simple rules are applied but obviosuly it could happen to me as it could anyone, doing your best on set up and preperation can reduce this dramatically, this is something I firmly believe. (just for the record wild guys are not treated like this, we apply different rules, privicy and no other animals but still works out fine)

Get the mum to be in a rountine prior to birth, feed her around the same time each evening, remember speaking the whole time so air space is not silent leaving less room for frights if you make a noise. Handle her daily and also I am a huge fan of bribing. Hand feeding helps with bonding even with adults so offering treats will teach her you are the bringer of all things good . Remember just because she is pregnant does not mean she is a little flower pettle, I handle them all the same, wheels left with them till the babies arrive as mothers about to birth can become very restless and a wheel can releave some stress. One of the main reasons a wheel should be removed after a birth is the birth canal and anus are weakened after delivery due to the stress they undergo and need time to recover and she may very well want to run but this is not good on stressed muscles and prolaps can happen so best to avoid and allow healing and just let her run the cage a bit if she needs. Once the babies arrive feed her at the same time, calling her name and I can say 99% of the time my girls still come for their meal allowing you time to have a quick peek to make and do brief assesment of the litter. Many people wont even look till day 10-14 but once you set up a routine and food dish is as far away from the nest site as possible then it can be done safely.

I usually do not hold the babies within the first week as this is a good bonding time for mum & young and it is after week two she will seek more and more time away from them which is perfect for you as you get more and more time with them and she doesn't mind. Most mothers will allow you view her feeding her babies and this is generally a fantastic parent as they are being relaxed and allowing them selves and their young to be completely open to you. Setting up a mother only area in another corner also works well as this is mums refuge away from teething babies by week three and some young have been killed as late as week 4 and I think not allowing the mother to escape the litter can play a huge part as they need alone time, a slightly raised platform is good as mum can rest and the young can play and wonder around, she will feed them when they need it and some babies will cry for a while before she returns, this is normal too as not all females answer right off the batt.

Many people will say well my female spends most of her time in the nest etc...although this is true observations (which most people do not do) have shown mum does not make her self available to them for all of this time, some even ball up so it is fairly easy to say they want 'me' time. Also as the young sleep far more when younger just like everything else she will remain in the nest for much longer at the start.

Again this is the general, some hedgies, like humans are just not cut out to be parents. You cannot know untill you breed so some of it is guess work (usually pays off), some of it luck and most of it education and preperation. Being hygenic when handling the babies also. Always have hands washed prior to picking up a baby as any smell transfered can be deemed as a threat from an outside source and could lead to her killing them. Your scent will be recognised and generally she wont mind, some people also rub their hands in the bedding if saw shavings are used to mask thier smells, again this can also work well.

I know it sounds very complicated looking over it but it isnt at all. So when can we expect news of a mating

[Tan]

Originally Posted by fantapants

i understand that infanticide is he mum killing the babies as there is something wrong with them (please correct me if i am wrong).... but how often does the mum eat her babies ? as i said i never had any issues with that when i bred rats and mice but just wanted to get an idea on how common it was or if it was over exagerated.

Sorry if I seemed rude there, that was an accident. You know I wouldn't be to you . Infantaside can be to protect them & herself from preditors. Yes if their is something wrong with babies the parents generally will dispose of or destroy them but also when they feel threatened babies will be killed so no noise, no smell and nothing keeping mum at more risk freeing her up to escape and protect herself. Unfortunatly animals can feel the need to do this even in their loving homes, you do get the odd one who no matter what is over defensive but generally its unfortunatly down to an error on our parts. Rodents even birds will do this. Another reason is the parents survival is more important, they can always reproduce at a later date and when I speak of diet this is another reason, scientist have documented that some animals have done this when lacking something they need in the diet. Maybe I'm wrong, but it could be why I have had not had one case yet in almost 20yrs with hedgehogs.

[fantapants]

wow, thats fantastic info. and it makes 100% complete logic sense too. alot of the info i have been reading is from american forums. I was reading that wheels are removed because mums will try to take the babies on the wheel and trample them too death. alot of the stuff i have read makes no sense at all and i have been searching everywhere looking for sensible info and advice. alot of it is just plain crap! thank you very much for explaining it to me. you should write a book or have a website, it seems there is little reliable info about APHs.

the bribery approach always worked for us with the rats and the mice. we never had any issues with cleaning out the cages or topping up the food when there was new babies. thats great info about the routines too. thanks!

[Tan]

Lol, funny you should say that. I was approached last year by a TV vet and asked to colaberate on a book on both native and APH and also do a TV show. I hate cameras so thats a no but the book has not yet been ruled out. I am mod on a couple of sites but far too lazy to run my own although I do have one but never made it live .

Actually crushed babies is also a possibility, there are so many I just kind of thought about the most obvious. I have had a female who was SO protective over her litter she took each baby to her food bowl, placed them along side it, fed, then took them back to the nest, one at a time. This happened every day for the first week and intervention I fear would have possibly caused deaths, she also took one when she went to the litter tray so she would have run with them in her wheel. She worried me something terrible at the time.

Most of it is down to having some brains which you obviously do, it is not rocket science and I know from speaking with you this would be a walk in the park for you. It is very basic stuff when you look at it, physiology, diet, behaviour, just spend a little time educating yourself on any animal for that matter and your flying. Much of the rest is just time spent studying them.

We could have a really good jam session lol.