Craig Busch - 'Lion Man' - UK Tour?

[Kerriebaby]

Originally Posted by Twiglet

hmmmm... interesting reading. I can't say that the guys show has ever had me gripped.
I'll start with the colour morphs... now whilst i cant say I'm against the captive breeding of colour morphs (hell, i keep enough myself) I could never condone the breeding of genetic mutations in the name of conservation. the fact that he claims to be doing just that is -frankly- rediculous. it wouldnt be so bad if he wasn't kidding himself that conservation is his main agenda.
if a colour mutation popped up in his zoo then i can understand him using it as a way of pulling in patrons but not as a breeding animal. so yes they maybe 'freaks' (as it was so cruedly put) but they are striking and i can see that the public will love them and so would have a positive effect on the park but i highly doubt that a reintroduced lion producing white cubs is going to benifit wild populations any.
on the subject of hybrids... these i am generally on the fence about - maybe even a little bit anti. I dont have an issue with people keeping hybrids as pets so long as when they are sold the person purchasing is fully informed as to exactly what they are and that they are not to be bred into pure lines.
lions and tigers however are not pets in any sense of the word and hybridising these species is nothing more than pointless. if he wants to play with genetics and produce colour morphs he should be breeding leopard geckos or fancy mice as a side line. neither of these are ever going to be reintroduced into wild stock as they contain so many recessive colour genes already so he can hardly do any more damage to them...
declawing is deplorable and if The Lion Man did indeed get his animals declawed out of ignorance as has been suggested then it really is proof positive that he isn't as knowledgable as some are trying to claim him to be. i dont doubt that he has a love of animals and that he cares for them but that doesn't make him an expert does it? I know people that love wolves... doesn't mean that they are going to try and turn one into a pet...
I'm not against the keeping of exotics either in zoos or in private hands but i do belive that if some one is keeping such large and potentially lethal animals that there should be a little more caution used and that it should be done ethically and responsibly. showing off how 'tame' your tiger is cannot really be considered any different than owning a breed on covered by the dangerous dogs act except in degree... maybe he doesn't see it like this but all i can think is that he's trying to make himself look 'cool'.

Bless him.

maybe I'm doing him a huge injustice, after all i have not met him in person but i am an animal keeper and do not like seeing the exotic keeping hobby marred by prats that think playing with DWA's is a great way to show off. its just encoraging the idea that DWA's make cute and cuddly pets that can be taken out for walkies.
sigh.
alot of the people who are arguing this article clearly have no experience with animals and therefore couldn't possibly be expected to understand why this guy is a bit of an idiot with a fluffy TV program that makes him appear as cute and cuddly as his colour morph tigers...

Kat

100% agree with you

[x Sarah x]

alot of the people who are arguing this article clearly have no experience with animals and therefore couldn't possibly be expected to understand why this guy is a bit of an idiot with a fluffy TV program that makes him appear as cute and cuddly as his colour morph tigers...

To be honest, theres no cruelty involved with what he does so i couldn't really care less.

He can breed and use them to earn money and get the punters in for all i care, but the animals are fed, watered, exercised and happy and thats all that matters to me, he can be an idiot all he likes, and it will if it hasn't already land him in a worse off place eventually, but until that time, the cats aren't suffering!

Some of his white lions he actually got from conservation centres in Africa! so they're doing exactly the same as hes doing, breeding and swapping white cats for now blood, so why is it only him that gets the finger pointed at? this is what pisses me off about situations like this! just because hes been on TV and a well known person, that makes him the bad guy! if they're going to slate one person then they should be expected to slate everyone else who does it!

anyway, i'm not going to sit here and argue about someone i don't even know, i have better things to be doing with my time, because like ever discussion thread on this forum, everyone likes to have the last word, and the thread just won't come to an end until its been locked.

[SilverSteno]

Originally Posted by x Sarah x

Each animal is important to the next! they're calling a white lion a "Junk" animal, something that should be thrown out with the trash basically...

Does that mean that a larger percentage on people on this forum are bad people, producing useless freaks of nature that are no use to anyone, because we breed different coloured snakes and lizards?

The difference is, people on here and elsewhere are breeding these morphs for pets, they are not being bred for conservation pruposes they are a hobby, a domestic animal. Now, if someone was breeding these morphs and claiming it was for conservation that would be a lie. There is no conservation value in breeding these morphs. Many wouldn't even survive in the wild as they would be too easy for predators to spot/prey to spot them. They have no conservation value as they have been bred to differ significantly from the wild type.

The same is the case with the white tigers in the zoo. The breeding of white tigers has no conservation value, they are not a subspecies of Bengal Tigers, they are something that people find attractive and want to see. When it comes to conservation, they have little value especially as they are highly inbred to be white and produce all these fancy tiger morphs. Breeding fancy coloured tigers is no different that breeding fancy coloured corn snakes. They are pretty to look at but are no use for conservation. These aren't animals that would be suitable for releasing their offspring into the wild.

Personally I think zoos should be for conserving a species, not for trying to breed all kinds of fancy morphs like is done for the pet trade.

[SilverSteno]

Originally Posted by Twiglet

hmmmm... interesting reading. I can't say that the guys show has ever had me gripped.
I'll start with the colour morphs... now whilst i cant say I'm against the captive breeding of colour morphs (hell, i keep enough myself) I could never condone the breeding of genetic mutations in the name of conservation. the fact that he claims to be doing just that is -frankly- rediculous. it wouldnt be so bad if he wasn't kidding himself that conservation is his main agenda.
if a colour mutation popped up in his zoo then i can understand him using it as a way of pulling in patrons but not as a breeding animal. so yes they maybe 'freaks' (as it was so cruedly put) but they are striking and i can see that the public will love them and so would have a positive effect on the park but i highly doubt that a reintroduced lion producing white cubs is going to benifit wild populations any.
on the subject of hybrids... these i am generally on the fence about - maybe even a little bit anti. I dont have an issue with people keeping hybrids as pets so long as when they are sold the person purchasing is fully informed as to exactly what they are and that they are not to be bred into pure lines.
lions and tigers however are not pets in any sense of the word and hybridising these species is nothing more than pointless. if he wants to play with genetics and produce colour morphs he should be breeding leopard geckos or fancy mice as a side line. neither of these are ever going to be reintroduced into wild stock as they contain so many recessive colour genes already so he can hardly do any more damage to them...
declawing is deplorable and if The Lion Man did indeed get his animals declawed out of ignorance as has been suggested then it really is proof positive that he isn't as knowledgable as some are trying to claim him to be. i dont doubt that he has a love of animals and that he cares for them but that doesn't make him an expert does it? I know people that love wolves... doesn't mean that they are going to try and turn one into a pet...
I'm not against the keeping of exotics either in zoos or in private hands but i do belive that if some one is keeping such large and potentially lethal animals that there should be a little more caution used and that it should be done ethically and responsibly. showing off how 'tame' your tiger is cannot really be considered any different than owning a breed on covered by the dangerous dogs act except in degree... maybe he doesn't see it like this but all i can think is that he's trying to make himself look 'cool'.

Bless him.

maybe I'm doing him a huge injustice, after all i have not met him in person but i am an animal keeper and do not like seeing the exotic keeping hobby marred by prats that think playing with DWA's is a great way to show off. its just encoraging the idea that DWA's make cute and cuddly pets that can be taken out for walkies.
sigh.
alot of the people who are arguing this article clearly have no experience with animals and therefore couldn't possibly be expected to understand why this guy is a bit of an idiot with a fluffy TV program that makes him appear as cute and cuddly as his colour morph tigers...

Kat

If only you'd posted sooner I could have just said I agree 100% rather than typing out my own reply

[Twiglet]

lol my bad silversteno... I'll be quicker next time!

anyway, i'm not going to sit here and argue about someone i don't even know, i have better things to be doing with my time, because like ever discussion thread on this forum, everyone likes to have the last word, and the thread just won't come to an end until its been locked.

and therein lies the fun of it

Some of his white lions he actually got from conservation centres in Africa! so they're doing exactly the same as hes doing, breeding and swapping white cats for now blood, so why is it only him that gets the finger pointed at? this is what pisses me off about situations like this! just because hes been on TV and a well known person, that makes him the bad guy! if they're going to slate one person then they should be expected to slate everyone else who does it!

fair comment. makes the african 'conservation' centres as bad he is though really. I'm not saying he's a bad guy at heart i just think he's being a bit of a misinformed tit...

Kat

[bothrops]

Originally Posted by x Sarah x

Each animal is important to the next! they're calling a white lion a "Junk" animal, something that should be thrown out with the trash basically...

Does that mean that a larger percentage on people on this forum are bad people, producing useless freaks of nature that are no use to anyone, because we breed different coloured snakes and lizards?

Originally Posted by x Sarah x

He doesn't have a lot of money, and his plans when he gets enough money was to make the cats lives even better with better enclosures etc...

His wife slept cheated on him? SO WHAT! his private life has nothing to do with me, cheating happens in a hell of a lot of homes EVERYDAY!

What he did for the cats and how much he loves them is what matters... and its a huge shame whats happened to him regarding the park.

Originally Posted by x Sarah x

To be honest, theres no cruelty involved with what he does so i couldn't really care less.

He can breed and use them to earn money and get the punters in for all i care, but the animals are fed, watered, exercised and happy and thats all that matters to me, he can be an idiot all he likes, and it will if it hasn't already land him in a worse off place eventually, but until that time, the cats aren't suffering!

Some of his white lions he actually got from conservation centres in Africa! so they're doing exactly the same as hes doing, breeding and swapping white cats for now blood, so why is it only him that gets the finger pointed at? this is what pisses me off about situations like this! just because hes been on TV and a well known person, that makes him the bad guy! if they're going to slate one person then they should be expected to slate everyone else who does it!

anyway, i'm not going to sit here and argue about someone i don't even know, i have better things to be doing with my time, because like ever discussion thread on this forum, everyone likes to have the last word, and the thread just won't come to an end until its been locked.

The white lion issues are slightly different to the white tigers but neither are the point of my post (personally I believe neither have any more conservation value than the lobster people (google it!) i.e. I have no problem with them existing and long may they prosper, but to suggest they should be selected for and breed extensively to increase their population in the wild is ludicrous - it is also a million miles away from captive/domestic morph breeding)


..the main point was that there is empirical evidence for cruelty- the report published that proves he declaws almost all of his cats (http://www.declawing.com/ http://www.pawproject.com/html/, ) ....the evidence that he removes young cats from their mothers when they are days old in order to imprint them (conservation? errr I think not) and the evidence that he is a little less than gentle with them. Top that with the fact that he took three white lion )cubs on tour (six shows a day) that were three weeks old - without their mother! This was actually on one of his shows, so isn't even a 'propaganda' thing! I would argue your notion that 'no cruelty is involved'....

Here's another link

YouTube - Craig Busch 60 Minutes Part 1

yes - the vid is a little biased, but even if you just watch what happens at 1.44 (with sound) it should remove the rose tinted spectacles a little.



I don't know him, but the more I read (on both sides) the less I like him and the more concerned I am about the numbers of supporters in this country who have been sucked in by the cute and fluffy cuddling a big cat thing.

[darloLee]

Originally Posted by naja-naja

oh my god.....

the enclosures were plenty big (the permanent ones anyway, at the start they were a bit small, but only when you compare them to safari parks, and if they had looked 'more natural' then it wouldn't be an issue.

considering most of them had daily outside time they were ok, same way you can keep a dog indoors so long as you let it out or take it for walks every so often.

and since hes been ousted from the park due to money issues and a subsequent falling out with his mother there have been several welfare complaints, the debt has tripled, 3 people have been attacked by big cats.... he should be reinstated immiediatley imo.

Originally Posted by x Sarah x

He doesn't have a lot of money, and his plans when he gets enough money was to make the cats lives even better with better enclosures etc...

His wife slept cheated on him? SO WHAT! his private life has nothing to do with me, cheating happens in a hell of a lot of homes EVERYDAY!

What he did for the cats and how much he loves them is what matters... and its a huge shame whats happened to him regarding the park.

what they said

[gazz]

Originally Posted by x Sarah x

Each animal is important to the next! they're calling a white lion a "Junk" animal, something that should be thrown out with the trash basically...

Does that mean that a larger percentage on people on this forum are bad people, producing useless freaks of nature that are no use to anyone, because we breed different coloured snakes and lizards?

No coz we breed for captive use.We are not breeding with the intent to release.

But when your breeding for a species future there is no place for mutations of the species.I'm not saying that the mutation animal shouldn't live.But it should be spayed/castrated and never bred from if your about Conservation.

White tiger = Conservation = .
White lion = Conservation = .

If mother nature throughs a mutation and it live and it does happen then fair enough.But man deffo shouldn't be invloed in mutations if there about Conservation.

[naja-naja]

well, white tigers are a rare mutation and he is trying to conserve that, there are less then 300 white tigers in captivity and less then 100 of those are pure bengal, the rest are bengalxsiberian crosses, this is a mutation that needs to be carefully cultivated and managed, as it is so easily inbred, much work has been done by henry doorly zoo and others, including mr busch.
he took animals to hand-raise them so they will be tame, he is an animals trainer, and uses these animals in films, commercials and such, this is common practice in the exotic cat world. white tigers can and used to live very well in the wild, they have been depicted as early as 1200 by european traders, they became extinct in the wild not because of camoflague, but because they were systematiclly wiped out by humans, chosen over their orange bretherin for trophy hunts and capture for royal menageries.i will bet you any money that if a bunch of white tigers were born in the wild today, the mortality rate would not be much higher then normal if humans didn't kill/capture any.
declawing is also routine with these animals, most people would be familiar with the archiac system that requires 3weeks rehab afterward, the new method (i.e. first used in the '90's) uses lasersurgery and the kitten is up and running around that day, and removing them to imprint them is part and parcel of taming them (if he didn't he wouldn't be able to enter the cage)

[Skyespirit86]

Originally Posted by adamntitch

dont like him at all a big show off with to much money and cages are to small no matter what anyone says he also puts his and other peoples lifes in danger the way he works

and i bet all your animals have huge naturalistic enclosures dont they?i think they look spacious enough and the animals look well. it is satisfactory to very good in my opinion, not stunning, but good.