rspca

[Chris Newman]

Originally Posted by ian14

WHY DO YOU ALL HAVE PROBLEM WITH AN ORGANISATION SETUP TO PROTECT ANIMALS????????????????
Chris Newman, I remember only too well the bitching that went on in your magazine , Reptilian, it worries me that the people we should be working WITH, not AGAINST, are yet again the subject of a slagging off.
hf666, grow up. The RSPCA do follow up calls. Stop being infantile with comments re film crews. Pathetic.
C_strike, I have never joined the RSPCA. Want to know my previos knowledge?? 20 years as a herpkeepr, worked at London Zoo, Cotswold Wildlife Park, Jersey Wildlife Preservation Trust, offered a 6 month placement at JWPT, a job as assistant curator of herps at Cotswolds, oh and a BSc Hons in zoolology. Along with being the DWA liaison officer forTVP, and a wildlife crime officer. I would say I am fairly well qualified, thankyou.
I feel that it is very sad that the very people we SHOULD be working with are, yet agin, the subject of paranoid distrust.

I am sure that this will promote a lot of discussion, I only hope that it is for the good of both the hobby and animal welfare, rather than a slagging session.

We have a problem with the RSPCA for the simple reason that it is no longer an ‘Animal Welfare’ organisation, rather a political campaigning body with a palpable Animal Rights agenda. It was only a few years ago that the Charity Commission forced the RSPCA to drop a declaration for Animal Rights from its policy document. Further the RSPCA is not interested in working with keeper organisations, the rejection of the proposed Memorandum of Understanding bears testament to that. The fundamental issues are the lack of accountability, and the fact there prosecutions are unsafe as they are not independently scrutinised. And the fact there ‘inspectors’ are not required to have any knowledge of, or interest in animals. I am quite surprised to here a WCO so supportive of the RSPCA, most are more circumspect these days, in light of the PC Bell case.

[cannotstopbuyingballs]

Originally Posted by exoticsandtropics

yeah if yo have nothing to hide why hide it. let them in let thm look at your snakes and educate them.

That is Dangerous !! Please remember this organisation have a POLITICAL AGENDA ! it is not all about animal welfare. They are so bias towards herps. I have heard when they told somebody to put their royal python in a 6 foot Viv !! We all know that a royal does not need that sort of space

[essexchondro]

That is Dangerous !! Please remember this organisation have a POLITICAL AGENDA ! it is not all about animal welfare. They are so bias towards herps. I have heard when they told somebody to put their royal python in a 6 foot Viv !! We all know that a royal does not need that sort of space

This is the danger of an organisation that "specialises" in mammals trying to barge its way into the reptile hobby.

[thelooneyflyer]

I myself have had a visit from the RSPCA after someone decided to report me for neglecting my animals ( I do not know who or in fact really care). What i do know is that i had nothing to hide and invited the inspector in, the individual was very pleasant and friendly. He said in his opinion all the reptiles i had and my cat were in excellent condition and in his opinion all the enclosures and husbandry were fine. He openly admitted he was not a reptile specialist and asked would i mind if it at a time convenient for both of us he returned with a reptile expert ( who turned out to be my local reptile vet that i was registered with), i agreed and the expert confirmed what the inspector had believed both left happy with my husbandary and i was reassured that i was doing everything right ! I can only go off my dealings with them but would be only too happy to have them back in my home. I realise that some people have had some negative experiences with them but in every job/career/hobby, there are bad eggs whether the RSPCA,Police,Reptile keepers, dog keepers. I just don't think we should tar them all with the same brush. This is just my humble opinion based on personal experience.

[cannotstopbuyingballs]

Originally Posted by thelooneyflyer

I myself have had a visit from the RSPCA after someone decided to report me for neglecting my animals ( I do not know who or in fact really care). What i do know is that i had nothing to hide and invited the inspector in, the individual was very pleasant and friendly. He said in his opinion all the reptiles i had and my cat were in excellent condition and in his opinion all the enclosures and husbandry were fine. He openly admitted he was not a reptile specialist and asked would i mind if it at a time convenient for both of us he returned with a reptile expert ( who turned out to be my local reptile vet that i was registered with), i agreed and the expert confirmed what the inspector had believed both left happy with my husbandary and i was reassured that i was doing everything right ! I can only go off my dealings with them but would be only too happy to have them back in my home. I realise that some people have had some negative experiences with them but in every job/career/hobby, there are bad eggs whether the RSPCA,Police,Reptile keepers, dog keepers. I just don't think we should tar them all with the same brush. This is just my humble opinion based on personal experience.

I am glad to read your story I really am but it in my opinum is not one or two rotten apples in the barrel but one rotten orchard with one or two healthy trees !!

I would like to see Government funded animal welfare officers. State officials with proper powers and un biased views.

[a.m.phibian]

Originally Posted by thelooneyflyer

I myself have had a visit from the RSPCA after someone decided to report me for neglecting my animals ( I do not know who or in fact really care). What i do know is that i had nothing to hide and invited the inspector in, the individual was very pleasant and friendly. He said in his opinion all the reptiles i had and my cat were in excellent condition and in his opinion all the enclosures and husbandry were fine. He openly admitted he was not a reptile specialist and asked would i mind if it at a time convenient for both of us he returned with a reptile expert ( who turned out to be my local reptile vet that i was registered with), i agreed and the expert confirmed what the inspector had believed both left happy with my husbandary and i was reassured that i was doing everything right ! I can only go off my dealings with them but would be only too happy to have them back in my home. I realise that some people have had some negative experiences with them but in every job/career/hobby, there are bad eggs whether the RSPCA,Police,Reptile keepers, dog keepers. I just don't think we should tar them all with the same brush. This is just my humble opinion based on personal experience.

This is kind of what i'm getting at. I get the point by a previous poster about 'looking for fault' but realistically i know if an RSPCA inspector comes around to mine and, for instance, see's a breeding group of 4cm bombina variegata (DEFRA/Natural England aware btw) in a 9 foot x 5 foot outdoor enclosure that is carefully reconstructed to replicate their exact natural habitat, then what are they going to do me for?!? I think even that **** Clifford W would have a hard job moaning about that one. But i do understand everyones concerns on them IF it is a FACT that they have a hidden agenda...Of this i'm not entirely sure so wouldn't be fair to comment. But i still feel they're a worthwhile organisation if it means even just 10 herptiles per annum are rescued from the hands of bored chavs and impulse buyers (please don't deny they're not out there folks!)...to be fair you don't always have to have scientific herpetological knowledge to know when something is being mistreated. It seems they do use one or two very good people as their herpetological consultants though.

[Chris Newman]

There are many good people within the RSPCA that is beyond doubt, people who are there for the right reasons, to care for animals. Unfortunately they are declining and being replaced by a younger more militant inspectorate that see there role as ‘law enforcement’ not animal welfare. In fact the RSPCA is quite happy to state there primary role is law enforcement, in Court one RSPCA inspector, she will remain nameless said “our role use to be animal welfare, today its law enforcement”!!!

Now I have no issue with law enforcement concerning animal welfare, but and it’s a big but, the body enforcing the law must be impartial, accountable and above all knowledgeable – unfortunately the RSPCA do not for fill any of this criteria.

People have said they would be happy to invite the RSPCA in to inspect there animals, this is a very ill-advised action. The inspector may well be more then happy with the way you are keeping your animals. However, they will file a report on the visit and that will be on held on file. You may not hear from them for months, years but there is every chance one day you will get a knock on the door and there will be your friendly inspector with another than you have not seen before – that is when the when the trouble starts. Your animals are seized, often illegally, you are prosecuted by the RSPCA (you don’t need to have committed any offence to be prosecuted) and you end up being heavily fined and banned from keeping animals.

This may sound far fetched, its not it happens regularly. One of the cases I reviewed concerned a young lady who had always wanted a Royal python, she had done masses of research before buying her pet. She had had the animal for a few months and it had problems shedding its skin, so she took it to the vets, and RSPCA vet. Anyway she ended being prosecuted by them for causing the animal unnecessary suffering. She was heavily fined and banned from keeping animals for five years.

Of the 50 or so RSPCA cases I have been involved with in only 2 have I seen significant problems, in both of these cases the people concerned had mental health problems. In perhaps another 10 or so there were minor issues, and all that was needed was some advise. In over half I could see no issues at all, other than the people had animals. However, all of these cases were prosecuted by the RSPCA. The statement from the RSPCA that they only prosecute as a last resort is in my experience entirely untrue - RSPCA prosecute for political objectives.

I am in full agreement that we need the RSPCA, but we need a RSPCA that is there for the right reasons. It is very clear they have lost direction and today have an Animal Rights agenda veiled behind that of animal welfare. We need an RSPCA that is transparent and accountable, currently they are neither. Most important of all is that the RSPCA are forced to work through an independent prosecuting authority, be this CPS or other body.

[gtm]

Whats more the RSPCA have on occasion shown a flagrant disregard for criminal procedure and the rules of evidence.

[Chris Newman]

Originally Posted by gtm

Whats more the RSPCA have on occasion shown a flagrant disregard for criminal procedure and the rules of evidence.

Nearly all RSPCA Court cases start with an abuse of process argument, rarely are they successful. However, if a case is lost in the Magistrates Court statistic show that you are 23 times more likely to overturn the conviction on appeal to a higher Court than you are a conviction secured by the CPS. Part of this is due to the RSPCA running training course for Magistrates on how to interpret the law!

[arkreptiles]

I have no direct experience with the RSPCA but have read the numerous threads on this forum with much interest.

What is coming through load and clear is that generally the grass roots workers do a fine job in often difficult circumstances. It is also clear that the RSPCA ought to educate their officers to ensure they are all aware of what their mandate is.

Having now conducted some of my own research I am disturbed by the aparent political agenda that the organisation seems to be following, its links with animal activist groups and indeed its propensity to prosecute on some very dubious cases.

Turning to the many in our hobby who have expressed opinions on the RSPCA, many in quite derogatory terms - I think it is time we stopped the mud-slinging and came together behind the likes of Chris to put a coherent and co-ordinated case together for reform of the RSPCA as a body concerned for animal welfare and protection of those of us who do care.

Let's face it, from my experience on this forum in particular we do not display much unity nor ability to put forward a cogent case for anything. If I was an objective viewer of many of the threads I'd be wondering why we seem to be constantly arguing amongst ourselves to the detriment of the hobby we all believe passionately in.

Take for example the thread on the formation of a Traders Forum (unbelievable reaction- most industries have such media - it's normal business practice - why were non traders getting so worked up??).

Then there was the idea of having a database for 'reputable' breeders that could be made available to the public and those in the hobby - whilst it's still a possibility many of us could not agree on some very basic principles.

We need to unite as a hobby and address the issues that face us as an adult, coherent and informed body or else nobody is going to take us seriously. If we are not careful we will get what's coming to us through our own actions!!!