Put an end to WC and CF Reps - yes or no

[boidae]

regius are usually always rehomed if in good health, there not often euthanised due to lack of rehoming.
big boids are the oppasite.

[Dan]

Originally Posted by Montage_Morphs

Alright smart arse, no need to nit pick. I was just using a suitable adjective to describe my thoughts on the amount of royals in captivity.

But if that is all you can pick apart from my post, then at least we agree with something!

There is no point me commenting on your ignorance about it not being our problem is some farmers don't have work, nor is there any point commenting on your biased view of how imports are done. As for the quaranteen comment, i presumed you would know why this is really and just added it to fill out your post?

[Montage_Morphs]

Originally Posted by Dan

There is no point me commenting on your ignorance about it not being our problem is some farmers don't have work, nor is there any point commenting on your biased view of how imports are done. As for the quaranteen comment, i presumed you would know why this is really and just added it to fill out your post?

Appologies for not caring about these farmers... I don't particuarly want to support any industry which exploits animals for monetary reasons.

I am utterly bias to my opinions, because they are MY opinions, formed on the basis of my own experiences having imported animals.

My posts need no filling out, I think I can get my opinion across in a very small space of text. And this is I absolutly disagree with the captive farming of snakes we already have an abundance of in captivity.

If you feel the need to nit pick EVEN MORE (as you seem to have nothing better to do) please feel free to PM me as I will not indulge in your silly little tat for tat games on this thread any longer. They are highly unecessary.

[v-max]

Would love to be able to spend more time with this thread, but just havent got the the time, so busy at the moment. I would just like to point out that WC / CF reptiles are not the only ones that can suffer in captivity - there are thousands of unwanted CB reptiles that have had miserable lives too. Unfortunately human kind has many bad apples. Also, nowadays I get more worried about health related issues with CB animals, various viruses, Crypto etc etc are all CB issues, not WC, and are a massive problem that we should all be worried about. Generally speaking (apart from the odd isolated case of Crypto in the wild) you only need to deal with very easily treated health issues in WC - worms, protazoa etc etc. Im afraid that my herpetological pride cant fully grasp why people can be so anti with regards to WC and CF - just because their current captives were CB (but from WC ancestry) - I dont see this as a justification to denounce WC in captivity. Thiers wouldnt be here without this "disgusting" trade in the first place. And having first hand experience in the trade I can sleep easy knowing that my findings of this side of the business is little worse for suffering than other areas (ie CB trade). Twenty years ago, yeah, it needed cleaning up - nowadays lets get it fine tuned to continue improving - but I would say the same for all areas of the trade from breeders to importers to shops.

[coolcroc]

Everyone here is missing one big point.... all of own animals were wild once!

I own 2 captive breeding farms in Africa, let me put a few things straight.

- I employ 10 people in both farms, I also look after their families by giving them all medical insurance and putting the young ones through school.

- All my staff get the training they need to do the job.

- My breeding policy is to release 20% of what we breed back into the wild, every year, I also work with the governments on conservation isusse such as tackling deforestation. This is the biggest problem that is wipping out some species.

In Tanzania we have more Chamealeo Tenue on the farm than what is in the wild because of deforestation!

I think some people should really open their eyes to what the real problems are that the natural herp world is faced with, however I do have to agree with the mass import of royals should be monitoredbetter and the anual quota should be lowered from 40,000 to 10,000, thats just the Ghanaian quota.

My farms mainly breed Chameleons and we are very sucessful.

Neil.

[Mason]

Originally Posted by coolcroc

Everyone here is missing one big point.... all of own animals were wild once!

I own 2 captive breeding farms in Africa, let me put a few things straight.

- I employ 10 people in both farms, I also look after their families by giving them all medical insurance and putting the young ones through school.

- All my staff get the training they need to do the job.

- My breeding policy is to release 20% of what we breed back into the wild, every year, I also work with the governments on conservation isusse such as tackling deforestation. This is the biggest problem that is wipping out some species.

In Tanzania we have more Chamealeo Tenue on the farm than what is in the wild because of deforestation!

I think some people should really open their eyes to what the real problems are that the natural herp world is faced with, however I do have to agree with the mass import of royals should be monitoredbetter and the anual quota should be lowered from 40,000 to 10,000, thats just the Ghanaian quota.

My farms mainly breed Chameleons and we are very sucessful.

Neil.

Originally Posted by v-max

Would love to be able to spend more time with this thread, but just havent got the the time, so busy at the moment. I would just like to point out that WC / CF reptiles are not the only ones that can suffer in captivity - there are thousands of unwanted CB reptiles that have had miserable lives too. Unfortunately human kind has many bad apples. Also, nowadays I get more worried about health related issues with CB animals, various viruses, Crypto etc etc are all CB issues, not WC, and are a massive problem that we should all be worried about. Generally speaking (apart from the odd isolated case of Crypto in the wild) you only need to deal with very easily treated health issues in WC - worms, protazoa etc etc. Im afraid that my herpetological pride cant fully grasp why people can be so anti with regards to WC and CF - just because their current captives were CB (but from WC ancestry) - I dont see this as a justification to denounce WC in captivity. Thiers wouldnt be here without this "disgusting" trade in the first place. And having first hand experience in the trade I can sleep easy knowing that my findings of this side of the business is little worse for suffering than other areas (ie CB trade). Twenty years ago, yeah, it needed cleaning up - nowadays lets get it fine tuned to continue improving - but I would say the same for all areas of the trade from breeders to importers to shops.

*APPLAUSE**


Nice to hear a voice of reason instead of SUPPOSEDLY PASSIONATE "HERPERS" denouncing things they have no idea about, not realising all they are doing is giving voice to out dated, unfounded opinions.

Perpetrating the message the antis want to give, what a brilliiant contribution to the reptile community.

Without CF and WC there woudl be NO HOBBY. Without current WC and CF the hobby will not develop. I wonder how many of the species these people love to keep have only been common in the hobby foir 15-20 years. With no WC and CF we will not have access to new species and bloodlines in the future.

All these new species becoming available to the hobbiest, and all becoming better understood for it.

[Matt Harris]

Originally Posted by Mason

*APPLAUSE**


Nice to hear a voice of reason instead of SUPPOSEDLY PASSIONATE "HERPERS" denouncing things they have no idea about, not realising all they are doing is giving voice to out dated, unfounded opinions.

Perpetrating the message the antis want to give, what a brilliiant contribution to the reptile community.

Without CF and WC there woudl be NO HOBBY. Without current WC and CF the hobby will not develop. I wonder how many of the species these people love to keep have only been common in the hobby foir 15-20 years. With no WC and CF we will not have access to new species and bloodlines in the future.

All these new species becoming available to the hobbiest, and all becoming better understood for it.

..and coolcroc's call for the reduction of the export quota for royals, what is that based on? Empirical evidence of the unsustainability of this trade? I think not, in fact, I know not, because there is none; no-one has studied this.

[Mason]

Originally Posted by Matt Harris

..and coolcroc's call for the reduction of the export quota for royals, what is that based on? Empirical evidence of the unsustainability of this trade? I think not, in fact, I know not, because there is none; no-one has studied this.

I also know a couple of farm owners working on release schemes. They have yearly release quotas to meet before they can even think of exporting an animal for sale. They also have to breed for x number of generations before thye are alowed to export at all. This essentially makes these animals captive bred, just in a farm in their country of origin instead of in my reptile room. Yes you have to take more precautions as a keepr regarding treating for paresites etc but to be perfectly honest I often find tis quicker, easier and less stressful to me and the snake than worrying about some of the problems animals can have coming from breeders and hobbiests.

We've ALL seen animals kept in worse conditions and states than they would ever see in the wild, give me a WC snake with a belly full of worms over a snake thats been kept poorly for years by some muppet in the past any day of the week. Brain damage, CAPTIVE only deseases and CAPTIVE ONLY problems like snake mites. Some reptiles change hands so often that it's impossible ot know their complete backgrounds. With WC and CF I have a fair idea of what to expect and what i'll have to deal with.

You are right, these opinions are outdated, incorrect and based on whistles and farts.

[jesuslovestheladies]

coolcroc, youve proved me wrong for one farm and im glad to hear it, especially bout the releasing 20% back into the wild, that means you assure that at least some make it to breed in future wild generations. anyway as ive said, no body seems to address the fact that with the major amount of deforestation coupled by WC/CF (except for coolcroc and similar minded importers) many species are going to (if their not already) start suffering badly. again with coolcrocs comment, the amount of royals should be brought down drastically, (and any other mainstream animal that is being succesfully bred in captivity) unless your a super duper breeder with literally thousands of breeding pairs, surely 4 WC/CF royals every year should be enough?

which makes me think that maybe this whole breeding thing should be given an official status? but thats a whole differnt area of discussion, WC/CF should be reduced in number and should not be used to fill in the blanks for 'pets' , the only reason i could justify WC/CF is to begin a breeding population of an animal, or to boost a captive gene pool, but lets face it, it doesnt take 40000 snakes to do that does it? and im speaking globaly here, every country involved in exotic herptoculture has a hand in this.

[v-max]

Originally Posted by Mason

Without CF and WC there woudl be NO HOBBY. Without current WC and CF the hobby will not develop. I wonder how many of the species these people love to keep have only been common in the hobby foir 15-20 years. With no WC and CF we will not have access to new species and bloodlines in the future.

All these new species becoming available to the hobbiest, and all becoming better understood for it.

Bearded dragons and Crested geckos are prime examples of species taken from the wild quite recently and are now bred in huge numbers in captivity. Corns and Royals have a slightly longer captive breeding history, but even so large scale production has only been for about the last 15 years or so. And then I cant resist mentioning that Royal production is centered on the colour morph side of the industry - very few CB "normal" Royals are produced, no where near the amount required and demanded by our hobby. People tend to forget that even the most humble of pets such as hamsters, gerbils and budgies all originated from WC.

As for WC furthering the hobby - I've got to agree. We need as many species as possible into captivity so we can understand them better, breed them and in many cases provide a safe haven for them as human kind busily destroys the natural habitat. Many species are far better understood due to the keeping and studies of people just like us - and some of our resulting CB provide (sadly) for the last stand for the species.

Like many debates, its not as clear cut as it first sounds.