Pimp my Vivarium - Pic Heavy

[Saedcantas]

Hiya Steph,

I'm really sorry it took quite so long to reply! Illness and busytimes at work meant my RFUK visits have been short and sweet.

The first point to clear up is about UV and eye damage, this was a problem associated with the earlier versions of the compact UV's and one or two of the T8 tubes available. There are still some poorer brands available on the market whose compacts are still potentially dangerous to use. However the Reptisun and Arcadia tubes and compacts now on the market are safe to use

The issue was down to the balance of wavelengths and type of UV emitted by the compact (and some of the T8 tubes) being inherantly unnatural and therefore damaging. There are two factors to consider, actual UV levels emitted and UVIndex at any given distance, these bulbs were running at UVI's as much as double what is tolerable to our herps and infact higher than could be found anywhere on the surface of the Earth!!! Put these nasty pieces of equipment into a small box with a captive herp and of course you'll have eye problems
This shouldn't be a problem with the Reptisun or Arcadia T8 tubes and compact bulbs available now.

Moving onto the question of creating a peak of UV levels and variable levels over the course of the day.
Because we're talking about a limited environment within a vivarium and because you're never going to expose your beardie to 600uW/cm2 in captivity, the concept would be instead to provide a moderate/average level all day long working towards providing your beardie with perhaps the same "amount" of uW/cm2 over the course of each day as he might get from 600 for 2 hours, 200 for 4 hours etc etc...
If you check out HadesDragons viv build topic though as he really explored the ideas of variable UVB and temperature levels throughout the day, interesting ideas and certainly food for thought!

[Marcia]

I've only just seen this thread but that is amazing

[bothrops]

Originally Posted by jabba1967

Hey,

You're getting there, I told you all this when you first asked about the glass viv months ago. The biggest thing you'll learn from all this is that most people on here don't have a clue, and filtering out the crap advice from the good is an aquired skill.

Good luck

Jay

Oi! Cheap shot........

Originally Posted by Saedcantas

Hiya Steph,

I'm really sorry it took quite so long to reply! Illness and busytimes at work meant my RFUK visits have been short and sweet.

The first point to clear up is about UV and eye damage, this was a problem associated with the earlier versions of the compact UV's and one or two of the T8 tubes available. There are still some poorer brands available on the market whose compacts are still potentially dangerous to use. However the Reptisun and Arcadia tubes and compacts now on the market are safe to use

The issue was down to the balance of wavelengths and type of UV emitted by the compact (and some of the T8 tubes) being inherantly unnatural and therefore damaging. There are two factors to consider, actual UV levels emitted and UVIndex at any given distance, these bulbs were running at UVI's as much as double what is tolerable to our herps and infact higher than could be found anywhere on the surface of the Earth!!! Put these nasty pieces of equipment into a small box with a captive herp and of course you'll have eye problems
This shouldn't be a problem with the Reptisun or Arcadia T8 tubes and compact bulbs available now.

Moving onto the question of creating a peak of UV levels and variable levels over the course of the day.
Because we're talking about a limited environment within a vivarium and because you're never going to expose your beardie to 600uW/cm2 in captivity, the concept would be instead to provide a moderate/average level all day long working towards providing your beardie with perhaps the same "amount" of uW/cm2 over the course of each day as he might get from 600 for 2 hours, 200 for 4 hours etc etc...
If you check out HadesDragons viv build topic though as he really explored the ideas of variable UVB and temperature levels throughout the day, interesting ideas and certainly food for thought!

Fascinating stuff! Just goes to show, everybody can learn from this forum!

I think the comment in bold is hopefully going to get me out of Jay's 'people who don't have a clue' category, as clearly some UV is better than none, and I doubt that even 1% of all captive beardy viv approach anywhere near 600mW/cm2 in terms of UV output.

I think it is an area of research that I might look at getting a little more seriously involved in. Obviously many use the maximum levels that wild beardies are exposed to as the 'benchmark' and then look at if they get that in the wild, whether they need those levels in captivity.

I like the idea that the thousands of captive beardies that will now be tens of generations in captivity do not all have mild MBD or even low bone densities, but it might be a very interesting (if a little expensive, time consuming and practically difficult) exercise to take comparable xrays from a large range of wild, LTC, captive, multi generation captive animals that have been kept in a range of vivaria with a range of UV tubes at a large range of distances and see the facts.

As the UV is all about vit D3 synthesis and calcium processing etc, then it would be good to look at the quanta of wavelengths required per unit production of D3, and add that to the data from the above paragraph.

I also am not aware how long wild beardies spend being exposed to 600mW/cm2, nor if they preferentially seek out this level. Neither do I know if they NEED exposure to those levels or whether they tolerate those sorts of levels and their actual requirement is much much less.

It would be relatively simple maths to look at how 'total exposure' varies between 40mW/cm2 for twelve hours vs a range of strengths for shorter periods, but of course that would only give us an idea of the disparities between vivs and wild availibility but will tell us nothing about whether 40 for 12 is sufficient for a captive beardy to meet its daily D3 production levels.



It is certainly something that needs a lot more research!

So, although it is clear that all of us know less than we should, and some of us like to think we know more than we do, in reality none of us know it all....

...research, such as that that Lotte is involved in, and such that I might need to lean towards next time the opportunity presents itself, is clearly and obviously what is needed here.

Thank you Spatte, for the opportunity to explore the subject in depth and allow us all to learn things. Thank you to Lotte for her expert input and thanks to Jay for the lively debate that made all of us think a little more!

...to risk appearing twelve ............ RFUK FTW!

Cheers

Andy

[Mirf]

Okay I am now totally lost.....I failed my physics 'O' level

I need to put what in a 4' viv?????

[Saedcantas]

Part 2


I'm really glad to hear though that you've received your Solarmeter and that it's come up with the goods for you! Just having this little bit of kit in your hands and being able to really see the truth about your setup, no guesswork, i just incredible! Everyone ought to have one or you really are flying blind...

I hope you don't mind me asking but I would love to see a quick UVB exposure level "map" of the viv as it is now, I really do think it could help send the message home to those who just won't believe how shoddy and lacking their setups can be. I would be very interested to know what the highest reading you were able to get from a point the beardie can reach was.
My biggest issue is that even if people (not you Spatte, you've seen the light! ) don't have a Solarmeter, the UV Guide website at the very least gives you a "guess guide". There are detailed UVB level charts for various tubes at various distances on that website, it should be enough even without a Solarmeter to make anyone sure that 12+ just isn't enough

Viv sizes; I would certainly agree with the conclusion you've reached, that the average person using only a T8 tube to provide their beardie with UVB should be recommended an 18" high viv and no more. a 2' tall viv is sat right in the grey area, too complex for the average newbie to know how to adequately supply UVB using a T8 tube and too short for anyone inexperienced to try using an MVB.
To clear up the argument about MVBs and could they be used in a viv like this??? A 60-100W externally ballasted Megaray could indeed be used in a viv like this. Experience and a Solarmeter are however key to that, which is why you won't see me saying that to newbies in the Lizard section

[HadesDragons]

What a great viv!


The points you've raised about UV are interesting - like Lotte I'd recommend 18" high as a maximum for a conventional lighting setup, and even then you should ideally be using a reflector.

Tests (see UV Guide UK - Ultraviolet Light for Reptiles - UVB reptile lighting on test) suggest that a reflector increases UV intensity by around 80% or so - that means that if it's desirable to let a beardie get within 6" of a UV tube under normal circumstances, the distance would increase to around 10-12" with a reflector. That's the sort of distance you'd be looking at from an overhead tube to the top of the basking rock in an 18" high cage.

Using anything taller than 18" can pose problems - even with a reflector you'd have to be looking to either mount the tube on the backwall (not my personal preference), or to build a tall, elaborate climbing area. Beardies can often scramble up things, but struggle to get back down - personally I wouldn't trust mine (especially adults) to go climbing 12-18" above the floor of the cage...


This is the main thread about the cage I built which allows varying temperature and UV levels throughout the day - the bulb I'm using also gives UV levels much closer to those found in the wild, so you might be interested in reading it if you've not already:

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/habit...age-heavy.html



Related to this, I did hear a suggestion a couple of weeks ago that "gaping" behaviour in beardies could actually be to do with UV regulation - the "conventional" view of it was that the beardie has hit the desired temperature but "is too lazy / dumb / comfortable etc to move". To be honest it's not something I'd ever given much though to. They're certainly not the sharpest knives in the drawer, but thinking about it from an evolutionary point of view, cooling based on evaporation of water from the mouth doesn't seem like the best strategy for an animal which may never actually encounter standing water in it's life (http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/lizar...s-habitat.html). "Gaping" or "panting" does cause the beardie to lose water - surely evolution would favour the "less lazy" individuals which will move to regulate temperature (and thus conserve water).

The theory that I came across recently is that they gape when they've got to the correct temperature, but still require more UV exposure - they sit in the brightest (and probably pretty much hottest) point to absorb more UV. The trade-off is that they lose water whilst doing it. In the wild they may only do this rarely - UV levels are so much higher that they'll probably get a decent dose whilst basking. In captivity with the weaker UV available, they may need to "top up" even once they've hit a desired body temperature, which leads them to sit in the brightest, hottest place (probably the best source of UV in the wild, so instinctively the best place if they need more UV), and to begin regulating their temperature by gaping rather than simply moving somewhere cooler. It could be another case of unnatural captive conditions "confusing" their instincts.

Thinking about it, I've hardly ever noticed gaping behaviours in the high-UV cage - obviously I've not measured time spent gaping or anything like that so it's very much anecdotal, and to date only 5 different beardies have spent time in that cage, but as an idea it does seem to make a bit of sense...?

[NINJATURTLETOM]

Thats mental!! And toxic that baby with the boobs is quality!!

[callum gohrisch]

very cool

[snake rescuer]

how is she getting on in there??

[Ashtonsmum]

CBA to make comments on what "isnt" right with the set-up and am not getting involved in the dispute at all, seems abit childish tbh....

That build loooks Amazing!!!! Well done! How long did it take you to complete?

Sarah