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Old 25-04-2017, 10:44 PM
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For those that haven't seen the posts on Facebook the government is proposing to licence anyone who breeds two litters/clutches of vertebrates per year.

It was meant to apply to dog breeders but by default seems to be applied to all vertebrate animals. If this legislation is successful it will affect most people on here.
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Old 26-04-2017, 12:16 AM
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That is the most absurd thing I've heard of since the DDA!

Espousing Face Ache, I mean

Have ye a link to a vaguely more legitimate source, please?

Need Gerbil keepers now lay awake at night, in fear of Their standard issues kicking in their doors?
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Old 26-04-2017, 12:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by colinm View Post
For those that haven't seen the posts on Facebook the government is proposing to licence anyone who breeds two litters/clutches of vertebrates per year.

It was meant to apply to dog breeders but by default seems to be applied to all vertebrate animals. If this legislation is successful it will affect most people on here.
Please could you provide a (non-facebook) link to this proposal, I assume its something out for public consultation? And I also assume you mean two or more litters/clutches.

Unfortunately a lot of the animal law appears to be centred on dog keeping/breeding. And snakes/lizards/frogs/rodents aren't dogs.
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Old 26-04-2017, 01:12 PM
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I agree, but this is exactly the sort of legislation the animal rights groups want where there is ambiguity and no destinction between the species or animals encompassed within the proposed change. It will be a case of:

Are Dogs vertebrates? Yes = liscence needed.
Are Cats vertebrates? Yes = liscence needed.
Are Snakes vertebrates? Yes = liscence needed.
Are Rats vertebrates? Yes = liscence needed.

You can bet your bottom dollar there will be a charge for this liscence if this ever does become law. What would happen if a private keeper was to produce (by mistake - double clutching for example) more than 2 clutches - would they cull the young to nullify the need to get a liscence.

I would also be looking for clarification on the following:

Would Zoos be included?
Would a Stud Farm be included?
What about a farmer?
Are charities such as Guide Dogs for the Blind included?

All logical questions to ask but until a process of due dilligence has been completed we are unlikely to know the answers.

I have not seen the official proposal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dcap View Post
Unfortunately a lot of the animal law appears to be centred on dog keeping/breeding. And snakes/lizards/frogs/rodents aren't dogs.
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Old 26-04-2017, 02:37 PM
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I wouldn't have a problem with the concept of paying a fee to be a licenced breeder. One off annual fee for breeding? Or an annual fee per species? Or a fee per breeding weight female? What if the female doesn't produce a clutch or just makes slugs, do I get a refund or a credit for next year?

EDIT ^^ It would be easier to make an end of year declaration rather than register 'potential breeding numbers'

With all other forms of taxation you get something out of it. Some people might not like it but that is what our society costs:
... Road/Fuel Tax - pays for roads
... Income Tax - pays for government, schools etc.
... NI - pays for the NHS
... Council Tax - pays for the dustbin/recycling collection etc.
... TV Licence - pays for the right to watch live TV or anything from the BBC

What do I get in return for paying for a snake/rodent breeding licence? Would I get listed in a register so that if someone was looking for a Diones or an Arizona Mountain Kingsnake they'd be able to get in touch? How do they protect the register from the antis? Would need to be able to update (removed/add) species. How do I directly benefit from this licence?

Costs would have to be reasonable, if they just turn around and say £10,000 to be a breeder then it'll all go underground. Make it £10 per female and I'd happily carry on selling Trinkets at £40 each.

I would assume some sliding scale since someone with just 1.3 mice is gonna be making about 30x a month. If they are breeding rodents for food would that be exempt? But if you breed fancy mice to sell to pet shops you'd pay a licence fee?
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Old 26-04-2017, 04:13 PM
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I cannot see anything listed here that refers to breeding:

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...-consultations
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Old 26-04-2017, 10:25 PM
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"It is not a pet shop licence; it is now a licence for animal sellers"

The exclusion that allows the sale of animals you have bred from animals you own looks to have been removed from all proposals.

Here is a link to the debate earlier this year.

https://www.theyworkforyou.com/debat...7-03-30a.479.0


See the whole debate here

https://www.theyworkforyou.com/debat...7-03-30a.446.0


There should be a lot of other information online but these were the links I saved.
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Old 27-04-2017, 01:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Colin Farndell View Post
"It is not a pet shop licence; it is now a licence for animal sellers"

The exclusion that allows the sale of animals you have bred from animals you own looks to have been removed from all proposals.

Here is a link to the debate earlier this year.

https://www.theyworkforyou.com/debat...7-03-30a.479.0

See the whole debate here

https://www.theyworkforyou.com/debat...7-03-30a.446.0

There should be a lot of other information online but these were the links I saved.
Thanks for the links Colin (F). One of the links has a way to show the whole conversation/debate. And it is some pretty dark reading on animal cruelty too. A lot of UK law is based on protecting people from harm and this is a clear extension of that idea to the treatment of dogs. But the debate is almost entirely about dogs with the occasional bit of info on cats and wildlife. I cannot see any mention in this debate about this being extended further than dog breeding.

Colin (M) - is there more information you have stating that this is being extended to other vertebrates as per your original post? Or was this just a comment on a facebook post from someone outside of the actual debate?


Again, having to be a licenced breeder shouldn't be something an ethical reptile breeder should be concerned about. Unless this is all channelled through the RSPCA - in which case we need to start an education programme for them so that they can understand the basics of reptile care. We know that you cannot sell mammals that haven't weaned (even though I couldn't find the exact reference on gov.uk animal section) but they'll obviously need to factor in how that related to snakes/lizards etc. I've seen a recent ad in the classified of a hatchling snake being offered for sale after ONE feed. I personally don't allow my own hatchlings out until they've had 10 feeds, but I think the common way is 3-5 feeds (I feel that that is inadequate and not yet properly 'established' so I go beyond that).
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Old 27-04-2017, 02:25 PM
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An absolutely ridiculous, authoritarian proposal by idiots without a clue.
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Old 27-04-2017, 05:02 PM
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With gypsy puppy farms and general puppy farms being on the rise, I can see why a licence would be a good idea.
The rise in French Bulldogs and designer dogs probably set alarm bells ringing.
We have a traveller site near us. I go past it every day. And every day there's a sign advertising cocker-poo (or some other mish mash of names) puppies for sale. Makes you wonder how many they are breeding and how they are kept, doesn't it?
Then look on fb and see hobby snake keepers posting on there 800th breeding !!!!
Or there baby shed with row after row of rubs. And they are hobbiests!!!
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