Politics is no laughing matter!

[TSKA Rory Matier]

Politics is no joke!

This is a topic that is not often welcomed by many readers. Having said that there are viewers to my posts that do take on board what is being written and can at least grasp movements within the fields.


Not known for always being direct with the written word in this subject, as many have rightly or wrongly classed the content as ‘scaremongering, spinning or just sending the unnecessary fear of God up the keepers’ at times of late l have only felt the need to write in a certain way addressing this and that.


However, again l received a request at the Basildon show to put pen to paper and write a little of my views and opinions, of the legislation, of the movements as they appear to be seen and also more importantly on current affairs within the reptile and exotics industry.


Apparently in some quarters l am classed as a full anti and in others l belong to some kind of Animal Defender Group – well if being concerned over animal welfare, legislation and issues that surround this industry makes me an applicant for these parties then so be it – call me as you will.


The main focus for me this year has been to look at the legislation surrounding husbandry issues which of course ties in with the Primary legislation – this being the Animal Welfare Act and its supporter the Codes of Practice, although potentially these may be referred to soon as Best Practice Guides.


I am personally very interested in watching these movements and alongside those that l speak and communicate to working in this field, it is a fascinating subject – and one that should not be left unobserved for too long by those that the implications will directly affect especially in this field of keeping exotic animals in captivity.


By the way, where are the reptile codes?? Anyone??


It was always rumoured that 2008 was going to be an interesting year, l can remember back in 2004, 4 years ago the writers of then addressing this year with some baited breath. It was to be the year when the facts would be revealed.


Certainly this year we have seen numerous ups and downs as far as the codes of practice have been concerned, with the likes of our regulators – DEFRA – wanting to see them completed to simply not being that bothered if they are completed let alone commenced upon. The lack of finances within this governmental business has obviously dampened their spirits somewhat.


Now that this industry sits in between two warring parties notably Labour [in power] and Conservative [looking to be in power, next election] – the reason being that of course there are winning votes to be had and we are it – so perhaps both the left and right governing should not look to create as much discourse as they possibly can and start to address our animals needs equally as much as our needs as keepers.


So it is an interesting position to be in, and now we seemingly have the listening aids of both sides – not bad.


Primates as a species have long been in debate and l do believe for very good reasons, there are way too many kept in completely the wrong conditions in private ownership and whilst l do not support a prohibition, despite not being a primate keeper myself, l can see the advantages to a much tighter legislation – and if we were to look at the recent European courts decision concerning private primate keepers in Belgium, this may cause some concern in the UK.

Private keepers in Belgium lost their rights of ownership to primates, they went in on the infrigements of humans rights and basically lost.

The RSPCA are l am led to believe looking to commence a new campaign aimed at either prohibiting private ownership or having primates back onto a licence – a much more effective licence which would mean all species are placed upon it and l alongside many private primate keepers would actually support such a move.


We still eagerly await the arrival of the primate code of Practice, and l believe we may still be waiting in years to come for a finalised version of this.


This would be good news for other exotic keepers, for it was looking that if primates were to be lost then perhaps it would only be a matter of time before other sections or factions of the community would be lost beneath the waves.


Proving in the long road that politics is of course no laughing matter and as long as we are persistent in our pro keeping responses we should be fine – but this is not to say that the battles are all over, done and dusted and way too many keepers when not allowing apathy to rule their ways, are allowing the arrogance of youth to penetrate their beliefs.


Not long back, Nerys and l attended Ratboy and his wife’s birthday celebrations. Present at this entertaining evening were a host of reptile keepers many of them longstanding, indeed, l was as always at these events the only genuine novice.


Notable about this group in fact was that they were not just long standing keepers, but strongly opinionated and in many respects political writers – so what l lacked in certain areas l made up for in others when it came to conversation.


One of the unavoidable issues of discussion was obviously reptile, but also husbandry and the state of play concerning the industry. Many issues were raised, from animal husbandry to current legislation and the full impact it will have upon the exotic keeping community.


We touched base, oddly enough with forums like this one, RFUK, where quite possibly more freedom of speech is allowed than others, that the keeper has to the right to voice her/his opinions on the rights and wrongs in the industry.


Also concluded was that just how many guest watchers were there to these threads and how many indeed were ADG members disguised as members amongst the community?


There had been some Troll activity about that time, and we were jesting that indeed it was not a troll per se, but more than likely an active member of whichever group trying to create problems.


Whilst we could acknowledge that no the industry was not going to disappear beneath the waves like Atlantis, we could see on the horizon stricter legislation coming into action, quite possibly severe restrictions at that, not now but perhaps 5-7 years in the future, possibly even closer.
That in twenty years the reptile keeping industry as known today would in fact be a very different kettle of fish, more so than some of the young keepers of today may wish to even contemplate.


We also discussed that there were at times, when political writing was seen as a complete waste of time, although it was agreed upon that there are more political readers now than there were of five years ago, and that was a blessing, for it meant that finally things were starting to sink in. … finally.


It was after that evening that l started to pen this post, place it together and watch the forum more closely as indeed l watched the market.


Recently l watched an interview with Andrew Tyler of Animal Aid – now l do not like this man, nor many of his principals and indeed he does have a relatively silly notion concerning animals and slavery, but the one thing that he did pay homage to was this line ‘Britain are not a nation of animal lovers, we are a nation of producers and keepers’


It did not take long for that to sink in, and l hated to have to admit to it, but l did actually agree to what he was saying with that – not all of it, but yes, in the last year in this field of reptiles, l have seen more keepers not just content at being ‘owners of reptiles’ but become scale breeders of the species.


It is true, to a certain degree we are not purely animal keepers, we are a nation of both. Albeit, he was not singularly looking l should imagine at reptiles, but specifically dogs and cats, but indeed he was in truth addressing all the captive keeping factions of the animal industry.


It does seem to be true in many quarters especially in the reptile market that more and more keepers as said are now turning their hands to producing an income for these animals – as to whether they are looking to cope with paying for their collections, for feed prices are not stopping in their steady upward financial rising or simply many seem to be jumping on board the band wagon and just looking at alternate methods of increasing the green within their pockets.


Collections grow ever larger, and in the same breath they also decrease. More reptiles are awarded to rescue centres, alongside the dogs and cats etc. But this question is obvious, do we need to have more and more unwanted reptiles bred?


Rescue centres get slammed, but in reality they receive the rawest deal of all. For it is them that must put up with the discarded species from these ever increasing collections.


As collections grow, the demand for more reptiles increases, so in reality this is a balance, but as said now more reptiles land up in rescue centres.
Are we really a nation of animal lovers any more or purely just driven by the monetary aspects?


People continue to ask of me – is the threat to reptile keeping still present?


Yes it will always be present, our opposition prey upon us as a pride of lions predates over antelope, it is an every day occurrence not just when the hunt is on. We must always be vigilant, we must always be ready to strike back. So many of the strikes against the opposition go unnoticed by the average Joe Bloggs keeper – many just continue on their daily lives none the wiser, that another stress filled week may have passed and reptiles are saved again from the wolves at the door.


I hear of others, keepers, breeders, societies, retailers and so on, say ‘politics is bad for business, so we can not display our interest in it’. I am the first to agree that politics is bad for business, but only because keepers allow it to be so – if it was accepted into everyday life like the morning newspapers – then no business would suffer from its consequences – but would be like a newspaper much better informed.


Legislation is great for improved standards of animal welfare, the rights of the animals, their keepers and so on, so how is that bad for business? Improved husbandry means improved welfare, improving welfare means creating legislation that does the right job, and it is politics that governs the legislation implementation so how is that bad for business?
In my eyes, it can only lead to improved business!


We must be as said ever vigilant, l find it sad that apparently smuggling is now considered more acceptable than it was five years ago, really? And then l think if it was drugs known to be smuggled in, all hell would break loose, but animals smuggled in boxes into the UK disguised as something other than they are – is not a major problem? It simply can not be can it?
More skunks apparently came into the UK than last year? How do l know this?


Because our official quarantine had to be cancelled, why? Because the sheer number of illegally descented skunks that came into the UK was so high, that the quarantine centre dare not take the risk of import of legally descented skunks???


We must pay special attentions to how we as a community are seen, through all methods, be this our husbandry, our attitudes towards legislation and the such like. People forget JUST how many guests do watch this forum – [Hi Guys] – but also how we present problems to the world.


The recent problems being the Hamm episode, l am sorry, but even l must make mention to this in my closing paragraphs. This has angered me immensely, and whilst l try to remain objective and impartial with matters such as this, there are times when l simply can not.


Errors of last year were to be rectified, animal losses of last year were to be rectified – it would not happen again it was said – but it did happen again, and by all accounts a lot higher.


I agree with Maureen’s earlier post of this evening. Coaches are made for people, they hold people baggage, reptiles are livestock not baggage. This can not be allowed to occur again – ever.


For if the ADG’s were to kick off against it, l would support their arguments against it.


Whether issues like this ‘should be discussed on the open forum?’ l think was raised? Why not?


Fear that animal welfare issues will become harder? Well should they not be?


We care for our animals – then damn we should be able to voice those concerns.


Politics is no laughing matter ladies and gentlemen it is there for all of us, our animals, the keepers, but above all it is there to display to the opposition that with us showing a dedicated commitment to understanding and absorbing what is being set in stone, that we as exotic keepers are potentially here to stay.


Let us remember that eh?

Rory Matier

[fishboy]

Don't do politics eh Rory?

Maybe now a few more people will stop and think about where our hobby is headed and how they are positively/negatively influencing future keeping and legislation, instead of just thinking of themselves and their wallets. Probably not, but well said anyway.

[Lucifus]

Some people just dont want to do the politics.

Although i agree about hamm i don't see how our animals can become expendable with the "if they die they die" attitude if it was kittens there would be a big outcry. However im unsure if the bus's have any special equipment for temperature control.

However i dont see the problem with people becoming breeders. Reptiles are incredibly popular animals with a good portion of the trade going from breeders rather than traders. Earning some cash on the side to help keep your animals is great and it helps establish better CB animals. With spider keepers this is a big concern since 85% of what out there is WC. There are limitations though. One of which is Green Iguanas. It irriates me that people keep breeding these.

[Maureen Collinson]

Originally Posted by TSKA Rory Matier

Politics is no joke!


Apparently in some quarters l am classed as a full anti and in others l belong to some kind of Animal Defender Group – well if being concerned over animal welfare, legislation and issues that surround this industry makes me an applicant for these parties then so be it – call me as you will.

Having spent many years now at my own expense, picking up the pieces in the form of reptile rescues, from all over the Country, which also ensured I never had free time to speak of, because I am an animal lover through and through, and have felt compelled to stick up for the reptiles rights and be their voice as they don't have one, I feel as you do Rory. It's sad but true that both of us through caring are often cursed when we spring into some kind of action via posts, etc, as we don't mince our words when we are compelled to address something or other and that can lead to us being rather unpopular at certain times. I can't change the way I am Rory, and I feel sure I can say the same about you.


By the way, where are the reptile codes?? Anyone??

I echo the above question, but also wonder who is left that has the knowledge to be able to compile the reptile codes. Those that I know do have the capabilities of doing so are walking away from offering to do so, and who can blame them when you see how few care about things like this, that is, until the day comes when they are given the code to adhere to and it's not to their liking, but too late to act upon.


Not long back, Nerys and l attended Ratboy and his wife’s birthday celebrations.


One of the unavoidable issues of discussion was obviously reptile, but also husbandry and the state of play concerning the industry. Many issues were raised, from animal husbandry to current legislation and the full impact it will have upon the exotic keeping community.


We touched base, oddly enough with forums like this one, RFUK, where quite possibly more freedom of speech is allowed than others, that the keeper has to the right to voice her/his opinions on the rights and wrongs in the industry.


Also concluded was that just how many guest watchers were there to these threads and how many indeed were ADG members disguised as members amongst the community?


There had been some Troll activity about that time, and we were jesting that indeed it was not a troll per se, but more than likely an active member of whichever group trying to create problems.


Whilst we could acknowledge that no the industry was not going to disappear beneath the waves like Atlantis, we could see on the horizon stricter legislation coming into action, quite possibly severe restrictions at that, not now but perhaps 5-7 years in the future, possibly even closer.
That in twenty years the reptile keeping industry as known today would in fact be a very different kettle of fish, more so than some of the young keepers of today may wish to even contemplate.


We also discussed that there were at times, when political writing was seen as a complete waste of time, although it was agreed upon that there are more political readers now than there were of five years ago, and that was a blessing, for it meant that finally things were starting to sink in. … finally.


It was after that evening that l started to pen this post, place it together and watch the forum more closely as indeed l watched the market.

A very enjoyable evening it was too. I agree with all you have written there Rory, and I for one am glad you have chosen to post after having been fairly quiet for what seems like ages now.


Recently l watched an interview with Andrew Tyler of Animal Aid – now l do not like this man, nor many of his principals and indeed he does have a relatively silly notion concerning animals and slavery, but the one thing that he did pay homage to was this line ‘Britain are not a nation of animal lovers, we are a nation of producers and keepers’


It did not take long for that to sink in, and l hated to have to admit to it, but l did actually agree to what he was saying with that – not all of it, but yes, in the last year in this field of reptiles, l have seen more keepers not just content at being ‘owners of reptiles’ but become scale breeders of the species.


It is true, to a certain degree we are not purely animal keepers, we are a nation of both. Albeit, he was not singularly looking l should imagine at reptiles, but specifically dogs and cats, but indeed he was in truth addressing all the captive keeping factions of the animal industry.


It does seem to be true in many quarters especially in the reptile market that more and more keepers as said are now turning their hands to producing an income for these animals – as to whether they are looking to cope with paying for their collections, for feed prices are not stopping in their steady upward financial rising or simply many seem to be jumping on board the band wagon and just looking at alternate methods of increasing the green within their pockets.


Collections grow ever larger, and in the same breath they also decrease. More reptiles are awarded to rescue centres, alongside the dogs and cats etc. But this question is obvious, do we need to have more and more unwanted reptiles bred?


Rescue centres get slammed, but in reality they receive the rawest deal of all. For it is them that must put up with the discarded species from these ever increasing collections.


As collections grow, the demand for more reptiles increases, so in reality this is a balance, but as said now more reptiles land up in rescue centres.
Are we really a nation of animal lovers any more or purely just driven by the monetary aspects?

Again, I find myself agreeing with what you have written, and can do so easily just by looking around my home at all the discarded common place reptiles, many as nature intended them to be, that are not worth anything to speak of, so can't even be given away. The knowledge that they remain unwanted by so many makes me question how many hobbyists of today are true animal lovers. I look at the reptilian morphs that Fred, Tom, Julie and Ann are saving so hard for, and I read up on these morphs and find that they can't keep their heads steady and act like they have a virus that affects their brains, and yet people are compelled to buy, keep and breed even more of them knowing that they are neurologically deformed, causing them to be unable to control their head movements. Many cry over snakes and geckos that have the same lack of control that occurs with viruses such as IBD for example, yet some of these same people continue to breed such terrible abnormalities, and then want it accepted that they are animal lovers that have animal welfare fully at the fore front. I can't get my head around that one, and thus join with animal rights groups in being devastated by it all.


People continue to ask of me – is the threat to reptile keeping still present?


Yes it will always be present, our opposition prey upon us as a pride of lions predates over antelope, it is an every day occurrence not just when the hunt is on. We must always be vigilant, we must always be ready to strike back. So many of the strikes against the opposition go unnoticed by the average Joe Bloggs keeper – many just continue on their daily lives none the wiser, that another stress filled week may have passed and reptiles are saved again from the wolves at the door.


Lets face it Rory. The hobby keeps handing out ammo to them on a plate, so of course the threat is there, and I don't see any change on the horizon that can alter the way it is at present. In fact I would go as far as to say that it is in fact the opposite.


We must pay special attentions to how we as a community are seen, through all methods, be this our husbandry, our attitudes towards legislation and the such like. People forget JUST how many guests do watch this forum – [Hi Guys] – but also how we present problems to the world.


The recent problems being the Hamm episode, l am sorry, but even l must make mention to this in my closing paragraphs. This has angered me immensely, and whilst l try to remain objective and impartial with matters such as this, there are times when l simply can not.


Errors of last year were to be rectified, animal losses of last year were to be rectified – it would not happen again it was said – but it did happen again, and by all accounts a lot higher.

Well addressed Rory, and I agree with all you have said.


I agree with Maureen’s earlier post of this evening. Coaches are made for people, they hold people baggage, reptiles are livestock not baggage. This can not be allowed to occur again – ever.

Thank you Rory, and I know there are many others that feel the same, as they truly care about animal welfare too. Lets just hope we have the bigger voice.


For if the ADG’s were to kick off against it, l would support their arguments against it.

So would I, but then any person that places the animal's welfare as of great importance, would surely have their welfare at the forefront, over all else, would they not?

Whether issues like this ‘should be discussed on the open forum?’ l think was raised? Why not?

Fear that animal welfare issues will become harder? Well should they not be?


We care for our animals – then damn we should be able to voice those concerns.


Again, I agree. Those of us that do enjoy the privilege of keeping these stunning creatures, have to be their voice, and in order for that, have to be vocal ourselves.

Rory Matier

Stayed logged on longer than I intended, so away now to my bed before dawn breaks.

Mo.

[Maureen Collinson]

Originally Posted by Lucifus

However i dont see the problem with people becoming breeders. Reptiles are incredibly popular animals with a good portion of the trade going from breeders rather than traders. Earning some cash on the side to help keep your animals is great and it helps establish better CB animals. With spider keepers this is a big concern since 85% of what out there is WC. There are limitations though. One of which is Green Iguanas. It irriates me that people keep breeding these.

Fully agree with you with one exception.

It can become a very big problem when money rules over the animals welfare as is seen with some of the man made morphs out there now, and that does nothing for us in the way of saying we are caring owners and breeders.

RSPCA chief veterinary adviser Mark Evans said :-

'"Intentionally breeding deformed and disabled animals is morally unjustifiable and has to stop."

I again find myself agreeing with this comment, and would fully back it.

What a tangled web has been spun by all of the events that have occurred to date.

Mo.

[royalnking]

I don't "do" politics as a small time keeper I find the legal jargon sends my brain into meltdown, that being said I do find areas of this "hobby" need to be tightened up, and I guess I am one of the political readers you mention.

I eagerly awaited the codes of practice from people a lot more experienced than myself, as none seem to be forthcoming does this mean that there is a conflict of interests or simply a lack of?

I find it ludicrous that nearly everyone I speak to is in agreement about the need for legislation around chicken farms, yet nothing is negatively commented on or even mentioned about breeding racks, which make me cringe. Primitive brain function or not, surely every animal deserves the right to have mental stimulation in it's environment.

I too feel deeply distressed that yet again animals have suffered and died in the transportation of them from shows, I find it hard to believe that so called animal lovers would put the need to find cheap animals and the possibility to make a quick buck over the welfare of their charges. Do I blame the organisers? No I don't, I feel it should be the owners primary instinct to ensure that their animals are transported safely, and if their are conditions that put this out of their control then find alternatives.

Do my comments make people think me a member of an animal rights group? Well to answer that, no I am not, I am definitely a prokeeping supporter I believe that animals enrich our lives and that we too can give them lives worth living. We just need to put our animals welfare first.

[wohic]

As Keeper, As Breeders, As Hobbyists,As businesses we ALL need to pull together and put Welfare first, not money, not the need for new Morphs, New 'Blood', or for that matter for Cheaper (disposable ?) pets. Reptile keepers do actually have it Far easier than Mammal keepers as far as legislation is concerned but by abusing that and treating our cold blooded Charges with dismissive Contempt, by not facing facts that welfare is not what it should be when it comes to Transportation, importation, sales, and general keeping (And no I am not Taring all with the same Brush, but there are keepers and Traders for whom the shoe fits) we are forgetting that what comes first has to be , in absolutely every circumstance, The Animals.



They Have no voice it is our Duty as Animal Lovers to speak for them.

[Akua_Ko_Nalu]

Originally Posted by wohic

As Keeper, As Breeders, As Hobbyists,As businesses we ALL need to pull together and put Welfare first, not money, not the need for new Morphs, New 'Blood', or for that matter for Cheaper (disposable ?) pets. Reptile keepers do actually have it Far easier than Mammal keepers as far as legislation is concerned but by abusing that and treating our cold blooded Charges with dismissive Contempt, by not facing facts that welfare is not what it should be when it comes to Transportation, importation, sales, and general keeping (And no I am not Taring all with the same Brush, but there are keepers and Traders for whom the shoe fits) we are forgetting that what comes first has to be , in absolutely every circumstance, The Animals.



They Have no voice it is our Duty as Animal Lovers to speak for them.

I 100% agree with this statement, there are many who through any situation, the welfare of their animals comes first. Which is the way it should be, but of course, this isn't what gets noticed, it's the select few letting the rest of us down.

[Athravan]

As a business owner, I do not think politics are bad for my business. Lord knows in the past I contributed very actively and offered what help where I could to what could be described as "political" areas. Retailers stand to lose their entire livelihood if politics dictated major changes in the keeping of exotics, and one would think it would be in their best interests to attempt to get involved positively.

A lot of reptile keepers are younger, and are pushed aside because of their age

To quote Maureen,

but also wonder who is left that has the knowledge to be able to compile the reptile codes

Do people have to be "left" ? Do the new people in the community not have the ability, knowledge and experience to help? I fear that the unwillingness sometimes that the "old school" shows to embrace newer people fully is cutting off the circulation so to speak, the groups of 20 years ago will get smaller and smaller. Here on the forums, everyone is included in these discussions, but outside of the forums, I wonder how much effort is really made to include "new blood", which is a shame - as the older people would have so much experience and knowledge to pass on, but perhaps there are issues of trust or security, getting to know others well enough to be able to talk openly and freely about serious political issues that cannot be talked about on a forum. Sorry, perhaps this is a bit of a tangent and a subject for another debate

I've said it before though, I think quite a few of us (and I will openly admit I include myself in that) have become disillusioned by the question

What can we do? How can we make a difference? Is anything we do going to matter?

Until people can feel that they actually can make a difference or contribute in a useful manner, they may not openly speak out on political issues. I do think, if backed into a corner by actual action taken that may negatively affect business, many more people would stand up against it. It is true of many sectors in life, that it has to be near the end, you have to push people over their limits of what is acceptable, before they will stand up and be counted.

[Faith]

I only have one question to put the the sentance "coach holds are for baggage"
Car boots are for bags, airplanes are for bags, TNT vans are for parcels.
So would this mean that if the coach is stopped due to animal welfare issues then the transport as a whole has to be stopped.
TNT have no welfare checks, plans, boats etc.
Boxes get thrown around and left in a depo over night before being delivered.
None of these modes of transport have any thermostaicly controled holds nor have any thermometers to check temps etc.
In the coaches favour at least they knew what the temps were and the owners had the chance to do the welfare check.