Goverment Petition

[TSKA Rory Matier]

An interesting discussion, l must say.

Having been away from this particular field for a short while for various reasons, l do intend to return to this forum under the 'new political me' and try and alleviate certain issues.

In itself the AWA was a masterpiece for it was set to replace an act of some 100 years out of date.

However we have problems in England with this infamous act, personally l think the act is an absolute waste of space, good intentions, splendid intentions, but at present about as worthess as a petition.

Petitions are only good if they have the correct amount of identified recognition - meaning that in order for it to be recognised as qualifiable, you need in excess of 100K worth of signatures.

Seeing as only 5% of the industry actually use forums as a form of communication, we have a staggering 95% that are not even aware fully of the e - petition.

The AWA is primary legislation - it was to be backed up by secondary legislation but as Arthur [hi mate] has correctly stated, DEFRA are penniliess and are standing behind those who do have considerably more clout than DEFRA were accustomed to. As once proud regulators, they are now nothing more than yes men to those groups.

The laws do need to be addressed and corrected, but this can not happen, when we live in a governing power that wish to de-regulate everything including pet shop licences.

Pet vending legislation talks are supposed to commence next year, but l serioulsy doubt that these will amount to anything valuable, and nothing exciting to write home and tell mum about!

The codes of practice, best care guides whatever you wish to call them, for cats and dogs have already been withdrawn from the market place of public opinion.

The primate code, will probably never see the light of day let alone a new dawn.

The Animal Welfare Act at this present time is just a complete waste of time and resource that was spent in its creation, design and development.

R

[Natrix]

I'm with Ssthisto, Arthur and Rory (Hi guys and girl) on this one.
Having spent more hours than I care to add up over the last six or so years researching information and writing up papers for the FBH to use in the defence of our hobby and it's supporting net work (the pet trade) I'm very much of the opinion that the necessary level of regulation is in place (possibly even too much) but it does need the finishing touches putting to it (which isn't happening at the moment) and it does need the appropriate authorities to get their collective butts into gear and start enforcing the new regulations.
I can’t help feel a little annoyed that the OP and their supporters have jumped on a perceived band wagon and begun making a fuss that could if it got enough backing cause problems for the whole of the hobby and destroy a lot of good work done by others over the past few years. Plus they have done it without speaking to any of the groups that represent us at Government level or it would appear without checking up on what the current law is or what is hopefully in the pipe line for the future.
Where were these people six years ago when many of us were fighting for this hobbies rights against an army of animal rights loonies and a government body (DEFRA) that didn’t think we were big enough to be worth bothering with.
Gordon
Ex Vice Chairman of the FBH and still researching and writing
various papers for the FBH

[arthur cooke]

Hi all, Totally agree with the last couple of posts. Natrix also makes a good point, where were all these people when we needed them.
I would be worried that we would be handing animal rights more ammunition to close herping down and as one of those who remember how nasty these people can be.
Closing down our shows, threats, intimidation, do we really want this all over again.

The trade is a part of the herping community, it's not some separate entity that we can target, they are us and we ought to be able to sort out our own problems without involving animal rights and government.

Over the last ten years or so I have seen a great improvement in the trade, many petshops nowdays take a great deal of care that the reptiles they sell are in good condition and try to give the best advice they can.

There are, of course some bad ones, so does that mean that we should punish the good because of the bad, doesn't feel very fair to me.

Like many who've posted on this thread I would like to know why there has been little in the way of consultation with all the groups that are acting on our behalf and working hard to make animal welfare better.

The most obvious solution to bad shops is to boycott them, if you think it's a bad shop, don't use them.

cheers arthur.

[Fixx]

Originally Posted by arthur cooke

Hi all, Totally agree with the last couple of posts. Natrix also makes a good point, where were all these people when we needed them.
I would be worried that we would be handing animal rights more ammunition to close herping down and as one of those who remember how nasty these people can be.
Closing down our shows, threats, intimidation, do we really want this all over again.

The trade is a part of the herping community, it's not some separate entity that we can target, they are us and we ought to be able to sort out our own problems without involving animal rights and government.

Over the last ten years or so I have seen a great improvement in the trade, many petshops nowdays take a great deal of care that the reptiles they sell are in good condition and try to give the best advice they can.

There are, of course some bad ones, so does that mean that we should punish the good because of the bad, doesn't feel very fair to me.

Like many who've posted on this thread I would like to know why there has been little in the way of consultation with all the groups that are acting on our behalf and working hard to make animal welfare better.

The most obvious solution to bad shops is to boycott them, if you think it's a bad shop, don't use them.

cheers arthur.

Possibly because we very rarely get told about anything you guys get up to, and when you go to the FBH website what do you see...very little. Is the FBH defunct now?

[arthur cooke]

Hi Fixx, the FBH is now a part of the F.O.C.A.S group. Which represents all of the animal keeping groups.
So no it's not defunct.

F.O.C.A.S - Announcements - Government 3-year Duck Study - News

cheers arthur.

[LFBP-NEIL]

The Reptile industry could be better served by having its own Visible trade association, I know we have REPTA which is apparantly working for us, thats not meant sarcastically as i know people involved with repta are on here, but its more of a secret society than a trade association.

what the reptile industry needs is a trade association on the same lines as the OATA Ornamental Fish

They actively pursue and get illegal traders shut down, i.e all the dodgy back room sellers, have codes of practice for there members to adhere to, etc, etc, etc (have a look at the site)

REPTA wheres ours? or does there need to be a seperate entity created for this purpose?

[arthur cooke]

Would yet another group do any good. For example you have a petshop, which as far as the authorities are concerned is trading legally, no group would have the power to close them down and being thrown out of a group would mean nothing to them and if the organisation announced they were being thrown out for X reason, they could then sue.

The only thing a trade body can do is protect it's members and represent them to the authorities.

It's also worth pointing out that an organisation to be able to operate like oata would need money and quite a bit of it and where the trade are concerned it's like squeezing blood out of a stone.

What the FBH found was that we were expected to work on a shoestring and that is difficult if you have to engage lawyers and experts etc.

I remember REPTA being set up and altho I am out of touch with them now, I bet that they are a dedicated bunch working for nothing quietly behind the scenes and that is so with most of the reptile groups.

cheers arthur.

[oakelm]

I honestly think that what you propose especially the vet checks just wouldnt work. The acts and ragulations already in place 'should' ensure any animal is kept in an appropriate way and sold in good health. If people have issues with rep shops they should go to the local authority of that shop and report them. With things like this the only way you can deal with them is to deal with each rep shop individually. What about some of the better shops out there, why should they be forced to add this expense on top of everything when the average vet (because there isnt enough rep vets) would probably know less than them on the specialist animals. I personally would love for reps to only ever be sold by breeders but I know that the way you get people into the hobby is by them seeing them. A rep shop is one of the few ways to do it. I brought my very first snake from a rep shop and if that rep shop wasnt there I wouldnt have known where to get one.

[LFBP-NEIL]

Originally Posted by arthur cooke

Would yet another group do any good. For example you have a petshop, which as far as the authorities are concerned is trading legally, no group would have the power to close them down and being thrown out of a group would mean nothing to them and if the organisation announced they were being thrown out for X reason, they could then sue.

The only thing a trade body can do is protect it's members and represent them to the authorities.

It's also worth pointing out that an organisation to be able to operate like oata would need money and quite a bit of it and where the trade are concerned it's like squeezing blood out of a stone.

What the FBH found was that we were expected to work on a shoestring and that is difficult if you have to engage lawyers and experts etc.

I remember REPTA being set up and altho I am out of touch with them now, I bet that they are a dedicated bunch working for nothing quietly behind the scenes and that is so with most of the reptile groups.

cheers arthur.

I agree with what you say and dont doubt for one minute there are people working away behind the scenes for no reward, And I imagine blood out of a stone is a very good analogy of the wholesalers in this industry.

But there is a whole new generation of dedicated reptile shop keepers out there now, who i am sure if they are as dedicated to pushing this industry forward as I am and some of the other shop keepers on here then a yearly subscription to a trade body would be no real big issue, especially if it meant there would be a fighting fund in place for the likes of C Newman to help our cause.

I personnaly would like to see a trade body that is available for all exotic pet retailers to join and pay a yearly subscription - those funds being used to administer the organisation and for promoting and furthering the industry. Have the ability to act and help get the unliscenced traders shut down, have codes of conduct and practice available for members to work to and adhere to..

or maybe im just an optimist!

At the moment we have the FBH slogging it out behind the scenes, working with defra etc etc, Repta collecting funds from wholesalers and doing whatever they do behind the scenes, But the front line of the industry the reptile shop owners up and down the country have no way of contributing to this effort and no way of saying, yes i am a good pet shop, I support this industry and work to the highest standards.

perhaps this is something i should look into setting up but wouldnt want to duplicate efforts already in place..

[arthur cooke]

Pink, I totally agree with what you say, a group of dedicated reptile shops with high standards would be a very good thing to do and I'm pretty sure that there would a lot of support from keepers for such a scheme.

I think that keepers, in general are looking for a way to ensure that they only buy from decent companies with high standards.

I imagine that such a scheme would require that shops be inspected and if they fell below the standard there would need to be a system of punishment and this, in my view would be the most difficult bit. Mainly because it would be voluntary.

cheers arthur