who does or doesnt agree with breeding enigmas..

[leopardgeckomad]

i dont agree with beedenigma leopard geckos as they can get problems like walking in circles i cant see why ppl have to breed enigmas, cant they just be happy with the morphs we've got ppl have to be greedy ...i want to know some of ther ppls views on this so feel free****and im not starting an argument ..

[boywonder]

i have 3 adults, a tremper het raptor, a bold bell and a no het non albino, all 3 are healthy and without issues, why shouldn't i breed them, they are all very beautifull and are capable of producing incredible looking youngsters, if a gecko can feed itself well enough to atain adulthood and doesn'd display odd behaviour, it is just like any other morph, i remember when people said that super snows were no good because they didn't grow. i have a 65g tremper super snow thats 8 months old. she grew fine
and its not down to greed that people breed their geckos. its a love for the hobby

[leopardgeckomad]

ok its ok to breed het enigmas but not engima to enigma right ?

[Kev132]

Originally Posted by leopardgeckomad

ok its ok to breed het enigmas but not engima to enigma right ?

even enigma x enigma breedings arent proven to be the cause of the problems.... so no, i wouldnt say its NOT ok to breed enigma x enigma, and there has been some absolutelly awesome animals produced from enigma breeding, i think you need to do a little more research before you go around saying i dont agree with enigma breeding.

[leopardgeckomad]

Originally Posted by Kev132

even enigma x enigma breedings arent proven to be the cause of the problems.... so no, i wouldnt say its NOT ok to breed enigma x enigma, and there has been some absolutelly awesome animals produced from enigma breeding, i think you need to do a little more research before you go around saying i dont agree with enigma breeding.

ok ppl im going to back down as i think ive lost lol...i ony thought it was wrong to breed enigmas as they can produce problems like walking in circles and not thriving ..sorry anyway

[Kev132]

its not a matter of winning or losing, your learning something.

you gotta remember, anything we breed we can get problems with, not just enigmas, sometimes things just dont work out, like freekygeeky has the garg with no back legs, ive had a couple born wioth no eyelids before ive had to put to sleep (not enigma's lol) snakes have been born with 2 heads etc....

bad things can happen, no matter what species or morph it is...

[Twiisted]

Originally Posted by leopardgeckomad

ok its ok to breed het enigmas but not engima to enigma right ?

Maybe you should know all the details or ur arguement against it before u start...

Any animal can have problems when they are born. Its not restricted 2 one species/morph

If you bred a normal x normal you could still get problems. Its just unlucky.

[GlasgowGecko]

Hey guys,

I personally think that enough research has not been done on this problem, and I would certainly suggest it IS a problem, to say whether it is in the best interest of the offspring to create it.
Undoubtedly there are people who will say they have unaffected enigmas, and that is fine. There are also those with enigmas which are affected, and so its clear "something" is happening, and from the brief amount of literature I have read on it, the symptoms appear to be similar or the same in all cases. I personally think that this is not a coincidence (although that is possible).

My suggestion is a single or multiple deleterious alleles become fixed through inbreeding. It is probable in this scenario that these alleles are recessive. Out breeding then creates an unidentifiable het which show no symptoms but is an enigma.... breeding to hets therefore gives a 50% chance of a problem. As i say this is only an theory, but I believe its plausible.

As for the "if you bred a normal x normal you could still get problems. Its just unlucky" argument, I don't really agree. If you consider the number of normal pairings per year to the number of enigma pairings you would see that statistically enigmas are much more likely to have problems. Yes normal pairings DO result in issues, but it seems that enigmaXenigma pairings are not just bad luck.

I think Leopardgeckomad gave up on his argument too quickly. Its everyones right to have an opinion, in captive surroundings the morphs we create have no beneficial attributes for the gecko,and can have very negative ones. It would seem to an impartial, that we create the morphs despite the risks for non money related greed....

Andy

[sparkle]

After reading last week that a 5 month old enigma showed the FIRST signs of problems... and hadnt before ...id say NO.. this may be unpopular but it is my opinion and this thread asked for opinions..
ive said a billion times before.. why is it humans think once they cant SEE problems there is none.. this issue with a 5 month old proves what i said.
What MAY be going on cant be judged because its not visual at birth... and holding back babies for a few months doesnt now seem to erradicate the issue... its so sad...
how do we know just becuase a baby wont display signs for the first 16 weeks it wont start later in its life...
I also read on another gecko only forum about one displaying at 6 months for the first time.. worrying stuff
I dont breed leos.. I dont particularly like them as a species but I appreciate they are beautiful
I also disagree with the spider royal head wobble issue before anyone jumps on me... just because they eat poo and breed doesnt mean they are 100% fine and ok.. if we dont even know half of what goes on with humans how wil we ever know with reptiles..



i do suffer as most know from a rare neuro disorder that often cant be SEEN visually.. but makes me feel confused dizzy and weak .. just because its not visual doesnt mean its not there
if this is a possible eye/ neuro/ genetic issue.. will it be fine if we breed it out to the point we cant SEE signs.. and are we ok knowing there may be issues going on underneath but aslong as we dont see them its fine...
obviously issues can occur in natural and normal breeding too...
however enigmas and royals display per percentage of morph way more problems than normals.. doesnt take a genius to work out it can only happen if we breed them

[tomsdragons]

hummm.. this thread is intresting..

i belive reptiles should be as found in thwe wild, we all agree nothing is better than providing a "natural" way for our reptiles to live..

yet, we are changing that, you do not see the morphs we have created in the wild, its NOT normall, so it MUSt be for humans means, weather money/ or for show.. but we are changing the species..

now..
i do agree, some species are amazing to look at, but are we trying " to hard " to MAKe things?..

thats the question, has it gone to far that we no longer care for conditions and welfare of what we are breeding...