Impaction

[PaleRider]

So, I've lurked around here for some time now, and it is clear to anyone who looks that choice of substrate is a very hot topic indeed. God help anybody who dares to show a picture of his beardie sitting on sand or sand/gravel mix as the heavy hitters wade in and pronounce him a heartless moron (I'm paraphrasing here) in wave after wave of attack. Week in, week out this seems to go on, with no real resolution ever being reached.

So... (deep breath).. what I would like to see is... Can anybody provide firm, scientific evidence of confirmed instances of gut impaction arising from the use of an apparently unsuitable substrate? I am talking about genuine, verified personal experience here. Not anecdotal hearsay of the "my mate says..." or "it clearly states on the internet..." variety. Not "conventional wisdom", and not repeating what it says in your favourite book. Hard factual evidence backed up by an expert (of the trained, professional and specialist variety, not the self-appointed variety), preferably supported by photographic and documentary evidence. I am also talking about animals which were previously fighting fit, not on their last legs.

Finally, I am asking for reports of death by gut impaction, and not simply death with some sand and/or gravel in the digestive tract. It is particularly common for omnivorous/herbivorous herps to swallow small gravel to act as a sort of "crop" to aid with the break up of tough vegetable material, and the two things should not be confused.

I am genuinely not trolling here, or baiting the flames, but I see these opinions thrown around so regularly here that I wonder if any of them is supported by genuine personal experience.

Be honest.

Please.

Thank you.

[Lukeg28]

Great post i think.

[PaleRider]

Thanks.

This is quite interesting. I wonder whether the lack of response is because:

1. I have a low post count, so do not warrant a response.
2. This topic has been done to death, so nobody wants to repeat themselves.
3. Not a single person on here has any first hand experience of this subject.

IMO, only option "2" has any merit, but I am not 100% sure that it is the overriding factor in this case.

[PaleRider]

p.s. I see that you have Gehyra Vorax on your list. What's their temperament like?

[Spuddy]

I agree with Lukeg28,

Pale Rider this is an awesome post. Because I do believe infact there is no real hard evidence to support the impaction 'theory'.

Well dont for putting it as you did.

[HadesDragons]

There are various X-rays of sand impactions (regular sand and calci sand) floating around - have a look through Google if you want to see them. You could also try using the search function on the forum for past threads - they aren't as common as some internet sources suggest, but you do get animals that suffer impactions, are diagnosed and recover.

If you want a case study of one (crushed walnut shell in this case) along with photo evidence, take a glance at this - I can't really see it having been survivable, nor a case of "death with a bit of substrate in the guts":

Bearded Dragon Gross Anatomy

In particular this picture - the gut looks pretty full, and a beardie that size would struggle to pass out that number of chips, especially the larger ones:




My personal opinion on sand is that as long as the cage is maintained properly and the animal is healthy, most lizards should be fine - it may not be the most natural setup to be living on deep sand (very few wild lizards do) but ingesting a few grains won't cause harm as long as there is food passing through the gut and the lizard can get to the right temperatures.

[Geckogirl_88]

I used exo terra sand only once. I stopped using it for 3 reasons.
1. It scratched my tank something rotten.
2. It dyed everything, including my geckos, bright orange.
3. It clumped together really badly wen wet and became really hard.

I know that our guts are lined with liquid, as are geckos. i could se that even a little of that stuff in my geckos stomach would become a sollid rock, which, lets face it, can't be good lol. So it was more a personal choice.

I hace also seen pics of x-rays and nercropsies where sand impaction has killed. There's no doubt that it could POTENTIALLY happen. IMO ingestion happens when geckos lunge at food, or when they have insufficient suppliments and so try eating substrate. I use a sand in my viv which my local rep shop uses and so my first 2 geckos grew up on it without problem. I have a rocky area where I feed them to minimise ingestion when lunging at food, and I make sure they are properly supplimented. IMO this GREATLY reduces the risk of my geckos getting impactionand so Im happy to keep them with their current set-up.
I think if ppl want a 0% chance of impaction, they should go for substrates with 0 risks, like paper towel, linolium, flat rocks or tiles.

Its up to the induvidual to decide whats best for them

Great post btw. Im all for taking leos off of things like corn chips when young (Iv seen several die from this in another not-so-reputable rep store) but other than that, to each his own

xx

[kirstyink]

Originally Posted by Geckogirl_88

I used exo terra sand only once. I stopped using it for 3 reasons.
1. It scratched my tank something rotten.
2. It dyed everything, including my geckos, bright orange.
3. It clumped together really badly wen wet and became really hard.

I know that our guts are lined with liquid, as are geckos. i could se that even a little of that stuff in my geckos stomach would become a sollid rock, which, lets face it, can't be good lol. So it was more a personal choice.

I hace also seen pics of x-rays and nercropsies where sand impaction has killed. There's no doubt that it could POTENTIALLY happen. IMO ingestion happens when geckos lunge at food, or when they have insufficient suppliments and so try eating substrate. I use a sand in my viv which my local rep shop uses and so my first 2 geckos grew up on it without problem. I have a rocky area where I feed them to minimise ingestion when lunging at food, and I make sure they are properly supplimented. IMO this GREATLY reduces the risk of my geckos getting impactionand so Im happy to keep them with their current set-up.
I think if ppl want a 0% chance of impaction, they should go for substrates with 0 risks, like paper towel, linolium, flat rocks or tiles.

Its up to the induvidual to decide whats best for them

Great post btw. Im all for taking leos off of things like corn chips when young (Iv seen several die from this in another not-so-reputable rep store) but other than that, to each his own

xx

[PaleRider]

HadesDragons:- Many thanks for your reply. I think that I would tend to agree that walnut shells are only suitable for chucking in the bin.

Do you have any personal connection to the case that you raised as an example? I ask because I have seen similar photographs illustrating the secondary effects of various cancers of the lower intestine/bowel where the impaction would not normally have occurred (from unseen mutations arising from the selective breeding of colour morphs in beardies. A very unwise practice which will come back to bite breeders in the future). I have also seen "experimental evidence" from studies conducted to quantify how much forced ingested matter will lead to impaction. An utterly contemptible process, but one which has been conducted nonetheless. In both circumstances, I have seen images misappropriated to support bogus claims of accidental impaction, so this is why I am suspicious of material posted on the interwebz. A surprising amount comes with an agenda.

I also asked for tales of personal experience.

To Geckogirl:- I agree. That Exo Terra filth is vile stuff and I am amazed that it is still on the market. However, I have no (direct or indirect) personal experience confirming an animal becoming injured through its use.

Finally, for disclosure, in the past I have not used substrates for hatchlings (of any species) that I have bred. Neonate basilisks and water dragons are spectacularly good at taking a little substrate with their food and while I have no doubts that this will be naturally passed without issue, with hatchlings which are pretty fragile anyway, I feel that "better safe than sorry" is a wise mantra.

I also think that corn (pressed, chipped or whole) is a terrible substrate and can be problematic. Sawdust is one of the worst choices possible (for any animal!) and frankly any dusty substrate can be a killer, but not for reasons of impaction.

[Geckogirl_88]

Yeh i had a mouse struggle with sawdust! It was so dusty that he's now blind in one eye Wouldn't even attept to use it with a reptile.
xx