Dog Training Woes

[Krista]

Hi,

PUNCHING IS NOT TRAINING!

whatever happened to positive reinforcement.
If anybody punched my boy I would clop them back...

Personally I would seek someone else out. If you are not comfortable with this style of training then you are wasting your money, your time and most importantly your Dogs time and metal welfare.

I've had quite a few Dogs (Some with very strong characters) over the years and have found Positive reinforcement to be most productive for them and myself.

At the end of the day you do what is best for you and your dog...good luck.

Jingle Bells

[pippainnit]

Originally Posted by rakpeterson

I cant read the whole thread so sorry if im covering old ground.

Firstly your trainer is correct in what he said about husky types not making good pets. He's not insulting you or your dog.

Many animals we all keep dont make good pets.

I dont think any of the experienced husky type owners on here would disagree, or would you??

They are high maintanence in all respects, be it grooming, training, temprement etc. Basically not what a good pet is.

The company are predominantly security/protection dog trainers and because of this, rightly or wrongly, their methods will differ from a trainer who specializes in 'pets'. No paticular reason for it other than the types of people who are involved in the differing areas.

Most training schools like this will have a much more direct, tough, no s**t approach, thats the kind of people they are and it is reflected in their methods. Many are now a bit 'old skool' now and still subscribe to pretty outdated dominance theory, that said they are good at what they do and have trained many good dogs, which im sure they will show you if you ask.

I do not believe the trainer 'punched' your dog. Are you sure thats what you saw?

If you did definately see this then obviously dont return and also report them. They will be in a lot of trouble and will, if it could be proved, lose any approved status they have with the relevant associations, i think they are approved by all the leading associations.

This is why I think you have misinterpreted what you saw. These people arent stupid. They are a respected company with good rep. and I cant see them doing something like this, they would lose everyhing should i come to light. I for one, and several other people I know, would be very appauled by this and they would lose business as a result.

As far as the bull mastiff incident goes, its a tough one to deal with. Personally i would not of had the bull in with the rest of the class, and the fact it was muzzled means someone knew it was a risk. But then what do you do? Your dog needs to be around other dogs for socialization and the bull needs some amount of contact to try to sort the aggression issues.

Personally I would not train in a group, only 1 on 1, and the dog would be socialized by me, around dogs that I have chosen to introduce, wether that is a pre arranged intro or after watching another dog you come across for a few minutes to guage its behaviour and the risks.

Lastly the recall. Personally I believe any breed can be taught recall, they are all capable grasping the concept, understanding what is being asked, but that does not mean the dog will actually do it when you say.

Thats the thing with dog training and trainers. They all have their own methods and beliefs, most neither right or wrong, they all follow a basic concept but with differant ways of achieveing it.

Hope this makes sense, just finishing up a night shift, eyes all blurry!!!

Hey, thanks for all the input. Re: the 'punch' incident, I did go on to say that I didn't see entirely what happened in regards to the trainer's hand but that and that it could've been a jab/dig in the ribs, whatever. I didn't intend to slag off the company at all as I'm very open minded and just wanted to do the best thing. It was our second time at 'proper' training there but we went to socialisation classes when the dog was a lot younger and they were great. Also the trainer last week seemed to just rely on shaking a dog chain towards the dogs rather than having any physical contact.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate their methods and went into it aware of their background in training mainly PP dogs - and when they brought one example in, it obviously showed that what they're doing (or what they did) worked in that instance and probably many more.

I suppose my main grumble/confusion was just that I wasn't sure whether my dog's behaviour warranted any form of punishment (be it a jab in the ribs or a row) for just playing with a dog he'd been encouraged to play with. I certainly didn't think he was expressing any form of bad behaviour and neither did the other dog.

And the bullmastiff incident was pretty sad. Obviously to get over the dog's nervousness and aggression towards other dogs then he has to be socialised but the dog was so terrified, and carries so much weight, that he can do damage even when muzzled. Last week there was an eight month old GSD there who was also nervous aggressive but they tried him in the field off lead without a muzzle initially and he bit another Husky that was there and drew quite a bit of blood. The Husky's owner was pretty upset and the training team dealt with it by then muzzling the GSD but in regards to the whole thing I think the people there clearly know what they're doing but I also think there are too many dogs at the classes and that you're suggestion about smaller - or ideally one-to-one classes - is correct. There're about 12-15 dogs per class, most of which are large breeds - the majority of which are there because they need to be trained and have some kind of undesirable behaviour. When there's only two trainers in the field and a lot of fretting owners then I suppose there's going to be incidents.

Excuse the ramblings - last night I was just feeling a bit melancholy about the whole thing. I completely understand the Husky dogs bit about not being suitable pets and shouldn't have taken offence to that directly; it moreso just made me feel a bit like the whole classes were futile in that respect, especially as it was said in front of all the other owners.

Thanks for all the input

[snakewhisperer]

Sounds like a bit of a production line. Why would they be putting dogs with aggression issues in with ones that are there for general training??
An attack in this situation is going to have a negative effect on every dog there. Why did they use a physical correction on a dog that was playing, at least use a verbal dissuasion first Did you think there was an aggressive dominance situation developing, if there wasn't then there was no reason whatsoever to jab the dog in fact I could see this being counterproductive. Trouble is, they may be a very good company but some individuals can become arrogant and want to show off with dramatic instant results!!

[Saedcantas]

I've removed the company name on request but I think there is good discussion to be had here, so perhaps minus the naming it may continue

[pippainnit]

Excellent, thank you.

Yes I did feel, regarding the nervous aggressive issues of the bullmastiff and GSD that they should have been dealt with differently and away from the general training classes. I realise that really the only way for them to become accustomed to other dogs is for them to socialise but they were genuinely petrified and it was not beneficial to the other dogs, who too are there for other training reasons. It was horrible to see to be honest as the majority of the other dogs there were very boisterous, which I didn't think was beneficial to the dogs with socialisation problems - it was throwing them into the deep end somewhat. I felt it would've been far more beneficial for them to get used to being around calm dogs, maybe one at a time.

[feorag]

Totally agree with you there. If the trainer knew the GSD had nervous aggression issues, any introduction to any dog should have been controlled sufficiently that no dog should have been injured at all - that's got to be bad judgement on the part of the trainer!

[Schip]

Sounds like they were using the flooding method to desensitize the problem animals - very old school I remember from my military days in the late 70's! I also suspect the jab in the ribs would be a single finger knuckle jab, again old school to distract the dog and remind it who's boss. Actually sounds very much like the training I went through back in the 70's when working with security dogs.

Nordic/spitz type breeds don't do recall well its not needed in their line of work so not part of their general make up they're just free thinking animals due to such behaviour/skill needed. Public humiliation like that is not necessary all it does is show the trainers personal bias towards/away from certain breeds of dogs. My schipperkes having similar temps and hearing problems (selective to a fault) would not go down well in such classes, do great at home on their own land for recall but take them out off property and try it!

Personally I'd find myself a new training class and if fit opt for something like CaniX training for you and the dog great way of exercising such a breed and competing in a hobby.

CaniX UK: cani-cross, running with dogs

[Zoo-Man]

It sounds to me like the 'trainer' who punched/jabbed your dog in the ribs is a follower of that Ceasar Milan crap of using your hand like a dog's mouth! Definately do not use this training class/company & tell others not to use them either.