Private hobbyist or commercial trader ?

[Blaptica]

With UK reptile shows I notice that Commercial traders/breeders are not allowed to sell reptiles. Why is this ? Also what is the defininion of a commercial trader ?

[Ally]

A commercial trader has a Pet Shop License in their name, this is what allows them to buy and sell animals as a business.
For a reptile breeders meeting I believe the club running it are given something like a license for the location for the day - but it's classed as a breeders meeting and so not a profit making thing. I know hobbyists will be making money but it has to be their own bred youngsters or surplus pets (same restrictions as selling animals without a PSL) and cannot be for business purposes.
Anyone there with a PSL selling animals will be breaching the terms of the breeders meeting, although I guess you could try to make sure they were only selling their babies - but who's to know? It's easier and safer for the club organising it to just say no to traders full-stop.
It's in the best intrests of the hobby to stick to the rules, so everyone sticks to it!

(having never organised a breeders meeting myself, this is possibly not the whole story)

[Blaptica]

Thanks for that Ally. I will try to find out when somebody legally should have a pet shop license. But I know for example of a large rodent breeder who supplies the trade with live rodents ( for pets), and frozen rodents (snake food) . He told me he cannot supply the general public because for that he would need a pet shop license. He might have a million pound a year turnover, but still under the definition of these fairs he would not be classed as as a commercial trader.

I haven't been to a UK show for several years but the last one I went to had a breeder of royal pythons there. I can't remember exactly but I think many of his snakes were up for many hundreds of pounds if not a thousand or more. If somebody spends say 500-1000 pounds on starting stock and has say 10 plus pairs can they say honestly that they are "just a hobbyist". If somebody is selling alot of investment reptiles doesn't it become a business ?. The word investment gives the game away a bit !

For most people with a normal job they start paying income tax when they earn around only 5.5-6k per year. It is quite possible that somebody with only 2 pairs of "investment" royal pythons could have snakes to sell at a show for twice that amount. So to me the idea that a pet shop license is used as a definition of a trader makes little sense.

[Blaptica]

More detail on who needs a pet shop license

10. Section 1 of the 1951 Act makes it an offence to "keep a pet shop except under the authority of a licence granted in accordance with the provisions of [the] Act". The definition of a "pet shop" is provided in Section 7(1):

• "References in this Act to the keeping of a pet shop shall, subject to the following provisions . . . be construed as references to the carrying on at premises of any nature (including a private dwelling) of a business of selling animals as pets, and as including references to the keeping of animals in any such premises as aforesaid with a view to their being sold in the course of such a business, whether by the keeper thereof or by any other person." (emphasis added)

Maybe 15 years ago there were small reptile shows where private hobbyists would sell small no's of young they bred. I am not sure that the situation is the same today. There is a lot of confusion re the legality of such reptile fairs with local councils choosing to interpret the law as to whether such events are legal or not. The organisers of such fairs are trying to limit the accusation that the people who have tables at these events are commercial. They would like to suggest they are simply private hobbyists. If they do not have pet shop license they cannot be commercial ? But if we see thousands of pounds of pythons as such events sold by private persons (bred at their private addresess), they should be required to hold pet shop licenses too, should they not ? If organisers of the fairs choose to allow exhibitors who clearly have an animal business, then they are making a mockery of the law and in my view will only cause this hobby further problems.

[jav07]

Originally Posted by Blaptica

More detail on who needs a pet shop license

10. Section 1 of the 1951 Act makes it an offence to "keep a pet shop except under the authority of a licence granted in accordance with the provisions of [the] Act". The definition of a "pet shop" is provided in Section 7(1):

• "References in this Act to the keeping of a pet shop shall, subject to the following provisions . . . be construed as references to the carrying on at premises of any nature (including a private dwelling) of a business of selling animals as pets, and as including references to the keeping of animals in any such premises as aforesaid with a view to their being sold in the course of such a business, whether by the keeper thereof or by any other person." (emphasis added)

Maybe 15 years ago there were small reptile shows where private hobbyists would sell small no's of young they bred. I am not sure that the situation is the same today. There is a lot of confusion re the legality of such reptile fairs with local councils choosing to interpret the law as to whether such events are legal or not. The organisers of such fairs are trying to limit the accusation that the people who have tables at these events are commercial. They would like to suggest they are simply private hobbyists. If they do not have pet shop license they cannot be commercial ? But if we see thousands of pounds of pythons as such events sold by private persons (bred at their private addresess), they should be required to hold pet shop licenses too, should they not ? If organisers of the fairs choose to allow exhibitors who clearly have an animal business, then they are making a mockery of the law and in my view will only cause this hobby further problems.

how are they making a mockery when they are following the law as it is interpreted by not allowing anyone holding a pet shop license to sell live stock.

[Ally]

Wether it is a business venture or not is an issue for the tax office, remember ALL keeping and feeding costs will be taken off the profits, usually even people breeding high end animals don't hit the tax threshold.
To be honest, a breeder selling £50-£100 leopard geckos can easily take home more money than a breeder selling £1000+ snakes. But obviously, their feeding costs are higher too!
At the end of the day - it's a Breeders Meeting, allowing breeders to sell their own bred animals - reagrdless of what they're worth.
A PSL allows someone to 'trade' in animals, ie. buying and selling on, and this is what is not allowed at the meetings.

[Athravan]

All the show organisers I have spoken to have clearly said that I cannot hold a table selling livestock because I have a pet shop license - unfortunately, even if it is stock that I have bred myself.

This is fine with me, it's within the law, and although I do consider myself a hobbyist and breed a lot of things at home, I do have a PSL in my name at my business premises and such am excluded, it's just part and parcel of getting a PSL, you must be aware you will now not be able to sell at shows in the UK.

I don't know any show organiser who would take a table booking from someone they KNEW held a PSL. The problem is that not everyone declares it.

[cornmorphs]

Thats it, i have spent a fortune on mice and other stuff for the snakes, and yes i have sold some quite expensive snakes, but i think people would be shocked to see where it all goes.
I know for sure i havent got wads of dosh everywhere and i dont know any breeders, certainly in the cornsnake world that get that much. Prices bomb very quick, so while you might eventually get your money back you cant quit work.
I am happy now that i reckon for me the hobby pays for itself.. not so far this year as i havent sold much at all, but in the long run i would think it does.

[tarantulabarn]

Originally Posted by cornmorphs

Thats it, i have spent a fortune on mice and other stuff for the snakes, and yes i have sold some quite expensive snakes, but i think people would be shocked to see where it all goes.
I know for sure i havent got wads of dosh everywhere and i dont know any breeders, certainly in the cornsnake world that get that much. Prices bomb very quick, so while you might eventually get your money back you cant quit work.
I am happy now that i reckon for me the hobby pays for itself.. not so far this year as i havent sold much at all, but in the long run i would think it does.

But Nige, ive seen you in ya Farrari

[cornmorphs]

Originally Posted by tarantulabarn

But Nige, ive seen you in ya Farrari

funnily enough, me and katy nlow drive twin ferraris lol