Breeder Shows - is our house in order

[rum&coke]

Originally Posted by Slurm

Theres a lot going on with reptile shows at the moment so I thought it would be good for me to get something off my chest:-

I have been to a few shows this year where its clear the breeders are not hobbyists, Why would a hobbyist need 2 tables for livestock and have the tables stacked high with reptiles?
Also having businesses selling dry goods between hobbyists does make it look like a commercial "market" perhaps we should think about separating the 2.

The lines between private Hobbyist and commercial breeder have become very blurred, but that should not mean we should stop policing them.

When a breeder imports animals to sell on, then they cease to be a hobbyist.
When a breeder sell his livestock on a commercial scale to pet shops he ceases to be a hobbyist.
When a Breeder runs a business or makes a living from his breeding then he ceases to be a hobbyist.

These shows are about making sales, let be honest, but sales for me mean covering some of the costs not profit.

We as a group should say yes AR and other groups may well be short sighted, uninformed and just plain wrong but we have become blind/complacent to some of the actions we should not allow.

Let ensure our hobby/family is allowed to continue by ensuring we are not opening ourselves to further criticism.

Tbh I cant really see what the problem you have is ,To me its pretty clear if you have a rep shop and sell animals as a business you are not a private breeder but if you are just breeding animals and making private sales you are not a business ,You cant really put a limit on the number of animals a hobbyist can keep and breed as that would not be fair.
As for people selling dry goods and live food at shows whats the problem with that?

[Slurm]

Originally Posted by penfold

but surely if you have your own web site that could be seen as becoming or trying to become comercial as the average hobbyist would not need a website ,pal

my Girlfriend did the website, and as much as she did quite well, i think its pretty clear its not too professional.

I dont understand your anger towards my first post, i dont know who you are and i certainly wasnt aiming my post at you or other very committed hobbyists, i was and am referring to large scale commercial breeders.

[penfold]

Originally Posted by Slurm

my Girlfriend did the website, and as much as she did quite well, i think its pretty clear its not too professional.

I dont understand your anger towards my first post, i dont know who you are and i certainly wasnt aiming my post at you or other very committed hobbyists, i was and am referring to large scale commercial breeders.

sorry your post came at the wong time its very frustrating with the shows being canceled we put a lot of our time and work into doing shows and having another canceled is not good we plan at least 2 weeks ahead i have no problem with you at all ,but i dont think posts like this on an open forum particulary help at the mo once again id like to say sorry

[cornmorphs]

Originally Posted by Slurm

Theres a lot going on with reptile shows at the moment so I thought it would be good for me to get something off my chest:-

I have been to a few shows this year where its clear the breeders are not hobbyists, Why would a hobbyist need 2 tables for livestock and have the tables stacked high with reptiles?
Also having businesses selling dry goods between hobbyists does make it look like a commercial "market" perhaps we should think about separating the 2.

The lines between private Hobbyist and commercial breeder have become very blurred, but that should not mean we should stop policing them.

When a breeder imports animals to sell on, then they cease to be a hobbyist.
When a breeder sell his livestock on a commercial scale to pet shops he ceases to be a hobbyist.
When a Breeder runs a business or makes a living from his breeding then he ceases to be a hobbyist.

These shows are about making sales, let be honest, but sales for me mean covering some of the costs not profit.

We as a group should say yes AR and other groups may well be short sighted, uninformed and just plain wrong but we have become blind/complacent to some of the actions we should not allow.

Let ensure our hobby/family is allowed to continue by ensuring we are not opening ourselves to further criticism.

i would guess i am on the larger side of being a breeder. i have looked into vat, tax, license etc and have been informed that as long as i sell my own hatchlings from my own babies, there is no issue as long as you dont go over the 67k limit as dave says below.
you are allowed to sell on older stock if you have kept it for about 2 years i think.. not totally sure on the time, buts something along those lines.
the guys you are talking about, i really think its because they do such a good job and have great looking stalls that makes them look professional.. my table usually looks like crap but can at times probably have many thousands of pounds worth of just corns..
on a side note, i absolutely know that i am way down on what i have sold compared to what i have sold.
its the people that are bringing stuff in purely to sell on that are really the ones you probably mean most??.. the ones that make plenty of money

Originally Posted by Akua_Ko_Nalu

Very good points made, I'm sure only a very select few (if any!) of us actually make the £67k turn over to become VAT and Business Registered?!

I personally am a very keen Hobbyist Breeder, I still work full time, but keeping my collection is a full time commitment as well.

i would like to see who is?? cant be many as you say. i know a royal breeder who is reg and paying tax, but i also know he spent more on royals in 2 years than my house is worth.. i dont want to name him as its not my business.
if i ever get to the point where i am making a decent amount, then i;ll pay big taxes on it, i was hoping for it to be this year, but from my 220 or so hatchlings, 100 wer not viable as follows:-
13 died in egg
12 kinked snakes
ALL unselable and given away (not the dead ones obviously).. there were a couple of extra ones with mino bumps that went for about 15% of their value.
i had about 70 odd bad/slow feeders in the end.. maybe i have an incubation problem?, i dont know..
so thats pretty much 100..
i have solkd about 20 good corns in all, the bad feeders were sold but at massively reduced rate.
i keep all my records, just incase anyone does need to look into them at all... overall tho, i think all but a tiny handful are doing the right thing.

[MJ75]

Originally Posted by rum&coke

Tbh I cant really see what the problem you have is ,To me its pretty clear if you have a rep shop and sell animals as a business you are not a private breeder but if you are just breeding animals and making private sales you are not a business ,You cant really put a limit on the number of animals a hobbyist can keep and breed as that would not be fair.
As for people selling dry goods and live food at shows whats the problem with that?

What about shows were people are selling not just the animals they've bred, but others they've bought in to sell on. Thats one of the things the OP was commenting on. It does happen to.

[cornmorphs]

yeah thats where you are ment to have a PSL, we have all sold something on at one time or another due to change of plans, financial situation, or something similar, i think its just the guys that literally buy lots to sell on regularly

[Layla]

This is my first (successful) year breeding corns and 2 years ago I bred my 2 leopard gecko females. I sold some leo babies to a pet shop and some of my corns are booked to go to a shop as where I am there aren't a great deal of people lined up to by exotic pets. Also with these small numbers (7 leos from 2 females and 33 corns from 2 females) it wasnt worth my while booking a table at any shows which is what I plan to do in future.

Have I ceased to be a hobbyist, no I have not. When I breed (hopefully 6 corn snakes) next year will I....personally, I dont think so!
Who can put a final number on when you cross the line from hobbyist to proffesional?!

I notice the OP has double figure female geckos I would say this is a keen hobbyist however should all these females have their full potential of offspring in one year then some might say this is excessive and no longer hobby level. Me? I say good luck and have fun with them all

I DO think people importing snakes they are not keeping themselves and selling on for profit are traders and NOT hobbyists. I personally wouldnt touch any of these snakes if I cannot speak to the breeder myself and it leaves it down to the hobbyist to source out competant, reliable and quality breeders.
Maybe I just cannot see the appeal of passing off others animals as your own OR not going to the effort (or trouble?) of doing it yourself.

I also think dry goods are a must at the show as people, with all the best intentions, will still impulse buy thus needing equipment for said animals.
I also find the equipment very useful living 'waaayyyy oop North' as many couriers charge many times what the delivery is worth to come to my postcode and local shops rarely have exactly what I need. Why should I as a hobbyist not get what I require purely due to where I live?

Where as its great to talk it out and bounce off ideas on how to improve our hobby I do think we need to band together and unite against the Anti's. Im all for animals being looked after and cared for appropriately. But some of what they do is practically terrorism. Its enough they are fighting against us without bring down each other.

[LEXCORN]

Originally Posted by penfold

but surely if you have your own web site that could be seen as becoming or trying to become comercial as the average hobbyist would not need a website ,pal

Totally incorrect.

An interesting website is very informative for people who are thinking of entering into any hobby be it dogs, small mammals, raptors or, indeed, reptiles.

It is very misleading to presume that those people who have spent many hours building an excellent website are business oriented & not hobbyists.

There is a wealth of knowledge available for those who are serious in their intentions of starting a new hobby. The major reptile shows offer a selection of books & so too the Internet. However, for those who do not wish to attend a show that may entail a long journey then the Internet is where they will search for relevant details of their chosen 'sport'.

A dedicated website is an important & informative tool.

Lex

[ratboy]

I think the question of when a hobby becomes a business is very interesting.

From what I can gather, it's all about intent.

If I buy reptile A then see reptile B, which I prefer and sell Reptile A to make way for Reptile B... that's a hobby.

If I buy a Reptile with the intention of selling it for more money than I paid for it... that's a business.

If I buy a Reptile with the intention of breeding it and making money from the hatchlings... that's a business.

If I buy a Reptile, breed it, hatch out a few hatchlings for my enjoyment then sell them on at a later date simply to make room ... that's a hobby.

Profit margins and VAT have nothing to do with business. MANY businesses run at a loss for years.

[oakelm]

I agree you must having been booking really last minute. I booked my doncaster table within the last few days before the cut off and there were still some people who got tables after me. If you want a table for definate then book early.

Also personally I prefer to sell at shows than have loads of different people coming to my house for individual snakes. I work full time and stupid hours so not practical for me. So when I go to a show it looks like I have loads but really thats probably all that years snakes. I also holdback lots of snakes to get exactly what I want so end up with older snakes for sale doesnt mean I have brought to sell on. But this year I brought a male royal for future plans, had an unexpected surprise in a clutch so kept 3 complete clutches by another male so that recent purchase male plus a few others had to go to make room. Doesnt mean I was intentionally buying to sell on. I think a lot of things that look big and professional often arent as big as you imagine. I try to look professional because if I have my website, contact details, logo then people remember me, buy from me again or can get hold of me if they need to.

Also on the subject of websites I find it helpful for people to know a bit about you and your animals without having to ask a million questions plus pics help to show examples of hatchlings or lines being bred. Not great for selling as you would have to update them all the time but as a point of reference for people they are great. Also mine only cost me £9.99 so hardly takes a lot of cash to do one just a bit of time and patience to set it up. Mine still isnt finished but getting there.