Pyramiding and misinformation

[gtm]

Originally Posted by tinkerbruce

so your original view was that maybe scute division was down to high temps? if you have now given up on this idea have you come up with any new theories? a friend of mine hatched out a few tortoises where the entire row of vertebral scutes was divided . He puts it down to the fact that that specific clutch was incubated at higher humudity AND temperature than another clutch incubated in a dry medium at a slightly lower temp of 30-31c.

i havent really checked this forum in a few days but i find this an interesting area.

Editha investigations seems to tally with your tale about the pub landlord who hibernated his tortoises in beer barrels filled with earth in his cellar. If my memory serves you said he said they lost much less weight than using the standard box / straw method.

[fantapants]

Originally Posted by gtm

Editha investigations seems to tally with your tale about the pub landlord who hibernated his tortoises in beer barrels filled with earth in his cellar. If my memory serves you said he said they lost much less weight than using the standard box / straw method.

hadnt even thought of that!. yes, i have to say i wasnt at all suprised about the fact that the "cellar hibernation in a muck filled bin " method resulted in less weight loss. As we all know, fridges can be very dehydrating so it would make sense to surround a tortoise with as much soil as possible to allow it to retain as much moisture as possible. and i really like to idea of having a big bin for each tortoise to burrow down into, seems a little less evil than putting them into a fridge ( even though its exactly the same thing!).

[gtm]

Originally Posted by tinkerbruce

hadnt even thought of that!. yes, i have to say i wasnt at all suprised about the fact that the "cellar hibernation in a muck filled bin " method resulted in less weight loss. As we all know, fridges can be very dehydrating so it would make sense to surround a tortoise with as much soil as possible to allow it to retain as much moisture as possible. and i really like to idea of having a big bin for each tortoise to burrow down into, seems a little less evil than putting them into a fridge ( even though its exactly the same thing!).

Certainly food for thought. I'm considering fridge hibernation my tortoises in tupperware boxes filed with soil. I would lightly spray the soil ever 3/4 days to retain an element of moisture.

[-EJ]

Originally Posted by Tortoise Trust

You are getting good results with your moistened food once or twice a week regime. No argument. You say this is proof the product is fine.

I think it is very important to note that I do not offer my results as any proof. I do offer my results as supporting evidence... very big difference in my opinion.

Originally Posted by Tortoise Trust

A person buys a bag of this product and now feeds it dry at 4% bodyweight 7 days a week. Or maybe they feed it moistened at 4% a day every day (thank you for clarifying that they recommend this daily, by the way, as I could not find it anywhere on their website).

I guess you can say the above in a 'worse case scenario' but that is not what is on the feeding suggestion. Again the manfucturer suggests 1-4% moistened or dry... daily... I know you are well aware that most people do not keep their websites up to date...

Originally Posted by Tortoise Trust

How do the results you have achieved relate to the results they will get?

Good question. It's all going to depend on the environmental conditions they provide in addition to the nutrition. If there is good heat and hydration... I would be willing to bet they would get as go a result, if not better, than my own.

Originally Posted by Tortoise Trust

As for T-Rex, it is worth noting what Melissa Kaplan has to say about their products:

" 2:1 Cal/Phos Reptile Supplement: Unfortunately, they apparently didn't bother to read a nutrition book before making this formula. Herbivores get plenty of phosphorous from the plants they eat - they certainly don't need any more! If you want to buy a T-Rex calcium product, buy their carnivore/omnivore formula, which has no phosphorous (T-Rex 2:0 Calcium/No Phosphorus). Then again, do you want to patronize a company that doesn't get it?

One last thing to keep in mind when considering buying a made-for-reptile vitamin product: they are not subject to the same truth-in-advertising nor quality control standards required to be met by producers of vitamins and supplements for humans."

From what I've read of Ms. Kaplans writings she is far from objective. While she is very thorough she does have an extreme personal slant on her reporting.

As to the T-Rex... if it is advertised as a complete diet a 2 to 1 calcium to phosphorous ratio is the currently established ratio. The only reason I see here is to try and discredit a product that she does not like for her own personal reasons.

One of the reasons I trust Mazuri and T-Rex Tortoise diets is that they are formulated for tortoises by people who have extensive education in the field of animal nutrition.

Originally Posted by Tortoise Trust

On that last point, I could not agree more. There is such a lot of confusion, hype and plain bad science associated with commercial reptile nutrition and supplement products that it is no wonder we see new keepers not knowing which way to turn and often making really tragic choices.

Andy Highfield
www.tortoisetrust.org

I couldn't agree more with you on your last point. There is tons of information that other keepers throw out there. Some of that information is thrown out seemingly for no other reason than to muddy the water.

I seem to have missed where you've addressed some of my questions to you in this thread...

This is the most important one...

What kind of kind of food and feeding schedule do you instruct a keeper to use?

[Emys-home]

Originally Posted by tinkerbruce

maybe scute division was down to high temps?

In nests in Spain there were temperatures above 40°C recorded (actually there was hatching result up to 47°C!*), so the problem can't be the high artificial incubation temperature directly but I thought maybe the missing natural night reduction leaves no time for a slowing down of metabolism so that waste products can diffundate faster through the shell than new ones are produced, thus reducing a possible dangerous build-up during the day (change of pH value?). Well, just an idea..

Originally Posted by tinkerbruce

have you come up with any new theories?

No, I wish I had.

Originally Posted by tinkerbruce

specific clutch was incubated at higher humudity AND temperature

This is one of the causes that are being discussed by scietists, two others of which I know, are pollution and inbreeding**. In forums I heard of several other guesses, light while openly incubated/infrared irradiation of the heating, shaking while checking for development and so on. As far as I know there is no prove of any single cause (or combinations thereof...)

Editha

* DIAZ-PANIAGUA, C., A. C. ANDREU & C. KELLER (2006): Effects of temperature on hatching success in field incubating nests of spur-thighed tortoises, Testudo graeca. – Herpetol. J., London, 16 (3): 249-257.

**César Ayres Fernández & Adolfo Cordero Rivera (2004): Asymmetries and accessory scutes in Emys orbicularis from Northwest Spain.-Biologia, Bratislava, 59/Suppl. 14: 85—88, 2004

[Tamie]

"What kind of kind of food and feeding schedule do you instruct a keeper to use?"

Lol - I have never known Andy to 'instruct' any new keeper on the above. Advise, recommend - yes. Instruct - no.

Just my observations!

Tamie <g>

[Tortoise Trust]

Originally Posted by Emys-home

In nests in Spain there were temperatures above 40°C recorded (actually there was hatching result up to 47°C!*), so the problem can't be the high artificial incubation temperature directly

I can report on finding tortoises in the wild with developmental scute anomalies quite regularly. It certainly happens in nature too.

Andy Highfield
www.tortoisetrust.org

[fantapants]

Originally Posted by Tortoise Trust

I can report on finding tortoises in the wild with developmental scute anomalies quite regularly. It certainly happens in nature too.

Andy Highfield
www.tortoisetrust.org

so scute division is not necessarily a captive breeding issue? i didnt know that it happened alot in wild populations.

[-EJ]

No doubt... I've seen many examples.

Originally Posted by tinkerbruce

so scute division is not necessarily a captive breeding issue? i didnt know that it happened alot in wild populations.

[wizzasmum]

Originally Posted by tinkerbruce

so scute division is not necessarily a captive breeding issue? i didnt know that it happened alot in wild populations.

I have an elderly hermanni with extra vertebral scute