Pyramiding and misinformation

[Tortoise Trust]

[quote=Andy b 1;1498760][quote=Mason;149660
incidently, Andy highfield of the tortoise trust sent me an email a while ago saying no wild caught tortoises have been brought into britain since the 70's[/quote]

This rather old post has just been bought to my attention. I feel it necessary to point out that this person is totally mistaken. WC Mediterranean tortoises (mostly of Turkish and Yugoslavian origin) were on sale here until 1984 a fact I am acutely aware of as I was actively involved in their rescue and rehab at the same time. Furthermore, after the imports of Testudo species ceased due to the adoption of new EU legislation, the UK then received large numbers of WC Kinixys and various Geochelone (in addition to lesser numbers of other genera).There has never been a time when WC tortoises have not been on sale in the UK. I suspect the poster is confused by the (true) fact that bulk exports of wild caught Testudo graeca graeca from Morocco ceased in 1976 and never resumed, which I have indeed commented on several times.

I thought it worth making that clear.

Andy Highfield
Tortoise Trust Web - Start Page

[Tortoise Trust]

Originally Posted by -EJ

R

The important point of this post is to caution keepers to try and find list such as this one that does not restrict or censor information so you get a complete picture of the information that is available. Many tortoise keepers lists will moderate, edit or ban members who do not post material that is appropriate to the 'teachings' of that particular list. I personally would stear clear of these list because you are not getting the complete information that you need to make an educated decision as to how to care for your tortoise.

Although this is quote an old post, it is nonetheless still a hot topic and one worthy of informed debate.

First, Ed, I completely agree with what you say above. I would point out that not one single person in the entire history of the Tortoise Trust mailing list (over 10 years, now) has ever been banned, censored or otherwise prohibited from presenting data, information or putting forward any hypothesis whatsoever, so I am not sure which lists you are referring to. This is very easily verifiable as the entire list is fully archived and can be examined.

A very small number of people have been banned in the history of the list. In every case this was not because they "dared" to put forward any alternative views or hypothesis, but because other aspects of their posts (or off-list communications) gave rise to complaints by other users. For example, excessively argumentative and confrontational or use of foul or threatening language. Provided people behave courteously and are prepared to exchange views and debate questions of disputed fact politely, they can do so until the cows come home as far as I am concerned. Good debate is informative and a very positive thing. If it degenerates into insults and name-calling, however, it is not appropriate.

I actually do have some questions I would like to ask yourself (and others) on this issue of humidity and what you call "pyramiding". I have spent the last year or so looking at this afresh, in depth. It is indeed very fascinating. There are a number of points I think we need very specific data on, however. Would you be prepared to answer some of my questions? I'd really welcome some input from people who have experimented with this in practice.

Regards,
Andy Highfield
Tortoise Trust Web - Start Page

[Alexanders_mummy]

ok there are lots of different views on this, and as a "pet keeper" i have put in hours of reserch on the internet and through somewhat out dated books on the care of torts, i want the very best and most replicated "wild" habitat that i can recreate for my Iberias (im collecting them on thursday).

i have a few questions
i have a cool end temp of 19-21 and a hot end of 31-33 is this hot enough?
i have a few questions
will a veried diet help prevent pirimiding?
what is a micro climet?
do Iberias need a humid hide?
how is it possible to find the best way to prevent pirimiding when i have no previouse experiance of tort keeping?

thanks in advance

[SWsarah]

Originally Posted by Alexanders_mummy

ok there are lots of different views on this, and as a "pet keeper" i have put in hours of reserch on the internet and through somewhat out dated books on the care of torts, i want the very best and most replicated "wild" habitat that i can recreate for my Iberias (im collecting them on thursday).

i have a few questions
i have a cool end temp of 19-21 and a hot end of 31-33 is this hot enough?
i have a few questions
will a veried diet help prevent pirimiding?
what is a micro climet?
do Iberias need a humid hide?
how is it possible to find the best way to prevent pirimiding when i have no previouse experiance of tort keeping?

thanks in advance

Hope you dont mind me answering but this is from my own observations

I found 19-21c too cool and tortoises would sleep under the basking light and would be very inactive. Hot end i find 32c great.
I feed a very varied diet and have got smooth growth BUT i dont restrict food.

What you need to do is read all experienced peoples views and then find out what suits you!!!

[-EJ]

On your first point... yes... in the past some list members did become abusive to some members on many lists... ironicly it was usually the same members on different lists that were involved. When those members get into a discussion they try to remain respectful even when attacked with sarcasm and insult... to a point. Over the years those members managed to extend that point... but... some people will persist with the sarcasm and insult until that point is reached no matter how far they extend it.

I know many moderators have use the excuse that members complained. Then... some members want to read nothing more than 'awww... isn't that tortoise cute...' or nothing more than what they want to believe. If the moderator/owner sides with that person... the 'abusive'/'disruptive' person person is banned... I've got some choice emails saved that proves it was not a one way street in any case.

Are you going to tell me that me and my point of view would be welcome to join your group?

As to the discussion on pyramiding... the more it is discussed the more new ideas are going to develop. I know many people who start their responses... 'even though this horse is nothing but a pile of bones....'. I don't know a single person who can give a definate answer as to what causes pyramiding. I personally believe that the two primary factors are Heat, first, and hydration, second. I also believe that it is as simple as providing the proper environment for that fine growth boundry/line between the scutes.

Originally Posted by Tortoise Trust

Although this is quote an old post, it is nonetheless still a hot topic and one worthy of informed debate.

First, Ed, I completely agree with what you say above. I would point out that not one single person in the entire history of the Tortoise Trust mailing list (over 10 years, now) has ever been banned, censored or otherwise prohibited from presenting data, information or putting forward any hypothesis whatsoever, so I am not sure which lists you are referring to. This is very easily verifiable as the entire list is fully archived and can be examined.

A very small number of people have been banned in the history of the list. In every case this was not because they "dared" to put forward any alternative views or hypothesis, but because other aspects of their posts (or off-list communications) gave rise to complaints by other users. For example, excessively argumentative and confrontational or use of foul or threatening language. Provided people behave courteously and are prepared to exchange views and debate questions of disputed fact politely, they can do so until the cows come home as far as I am concerned. Good debate is informative and a very positive thing. If it degenerates into insults and name-calling, however, it is not appropriate.

I actually do have some questions I would like to ask yourself (and others) on this issue of humidity and what you call "pyramiding". I have spent the last year or so looking at this afresh, in depth. It is indeed very fascinating. There are a number of points I think we need very specific data on, however. Would you be prepared to answer some of my questions? I'd really welcome some input from people who have experimented with this in practice.

Regards,
Andy Highfield
Tortoise Trust Web - Start Page

[Tina]

Tortoise Trust and -EJ

Please take any personal discussions you have regarding other groups etc to pm.

I don't want to have to close this thread as a good discussion on humidity, heat, pyramiding etc would benefit us all.

[-EJ]

What personal discussion?

Originally Posted by Tina

Tortoise Trust and -EJ

Please take any personal discussions you have regarding other groups etc to pm.

I don't want to have to close this thread as a good discussion on humidity, heat, pyramiding etc would benefit us all.

[Tortoise Trust]

Quite happy to do that, Tina. Here's the very specific questions that would be very helpful if addressed by people using this method:

• Exactly how much localised environmental humidity have you noted is required to bring about a beneficial effect?

• How exactly is this provided, and for how many hours a day?

• How were the animals kept? Indoors, outdoors, or a combination of both?

• How was the vitamin D-3 requirement met (lighting, oral supplementation, etc) ?

• What methods were used to record environmental conditions (temperature, humidity) ? If possible please provide manufacturer and model number of measuring device employed.

• What role do you feel hydration (water balance) status plays in this? I am not referring here to external environmental humidity, but to the tortoise’s overall metabolic fluid balance.

• What steps were taken to maintain overall hydration status? What drinking or soaking regime was used?

• At what size and age did the animal(s) commence on this regime, and what is their size and age now? If you have accurate charts of growth and weight gain that would be extremely valuable.

• What species were involved?

• Please describe the diet provided.

• Please describe what vitamin or mineral supplements were used (if any) with approximate amounts and frequencies.

• Photographs of the tortoises in question at various stages since beginning this regime would be extremely valuable.

• If any tortoise has died (for any reason at all) while on this regime, did you have a full autopsy conducted and are the results available?

• Do you have any radiographs (X-rays) of the tortoises in question? *
• What temperatures were provided, and by what means (heating sources, etc.)

As part of our ongoing longterm research into this topic the Tortoise Trust is prepared to meet the costs of obtaining radiographs of tortoises raised on specific dietary and environmental regimes. Please contact me privately for full details if interested in pursuing that aspect. As many will know, I have personally studied this particular topic for very many years and while very many of the mechanisms involved are extremely well understood (because they are absolutely identical to the same processes in mammals), there are certain unique features of the chelonian physiology that have made understanding the precise mechanism of so-called 'pyramiding' quite difficult to nail down. I look forward to your input on this topic, Ed, as I really think we can move this subject on at this stage.



Andy Highfield
www.tortoisetrust.org

[-EJ]

All of those questions are meaningless without a proper control or protocal and most of the factors would be close to impossible to quantify for most keepers.

Those questions might give a hint as to how to prevent pyramiding but not a cause.

[GlasgowGecko]

I have to agree with Ed on this, although those are the right kind of questions to be asking, without control individuals then no comparison can be made at any point.

It occurs to me that the best way to do this, is to get a group of breeders together and conduct some long term trials with controlled conditions.

Andy