Pyramiding and misinformation

[Tortoise Trust]

The questions are absolutely not "meaningless" nor would the answers be. There are far too many assumptions being made here, and far too little data and evidence of any kind at all being made available. Answers to the questions I raised above, particularly if supported by x-rays (for example) would be incredibly useful and informative.

There is no point at all debating this issue (or indeed, of advancing theories about it) if no-one is prepared to put forward any evidence. Theories without evidence to back them up are 100% worthless. They have no real value at all to anyone (except as endless circular debating topics, perhaps, but there can be no real result from that either in the complete absence of any supporting data).

Many people have been advancing theories and opinions on this, for example Ed states "I personally believe that the two primary factors are Heat, first, and hydration, second. "

I am attempting to understand the basis of that belief and to establish which facts are being relied upon to support it. It may be true. It may be totally mistaken. Without evidence we will never know.

I have specified in detail which areas I think need some clarification.

Andy Highfield
www.tortoisetrust.org

[-EJ]

I'm thinking... what breeder... or keeper would invest the time and the animals. To what end would the investment come?

Do we really need to 'prove' what causes pyramiding? I'm seeing a maked increase in really well raised animals. Many of the keepers on this list have seen the questionare I have sent out when I see a post of a really nice looking animal. Most, if not all of the common important factors are heat and hydration. Whether this is a cause or not makes no difference to me... what I do know is that animals provided with the proper ranges of these two factors look really good in shape and form. Diet or nutrition is definately a factor but not as important as the first two.

I don't think you can really prove which factor is the most important but it's my personal opinion that if you focus on those two factors that is going to give you the best results you are looking for... and that's just based on experience.

I'm not really willing to put in the time and effort to prove my point but I've provided some compelling evidence to support my opinion.

Originally Posted by GlasgowGecko

I have to agree with Ed on this, although those are the right kind of questions to be asking, without control individuals then no comparison can be made at any point.

It occurs to me that the best way to do this, is to get a group of breeders together and conduct some long term trials with controlled conditions.

Andy

[Tortoise Trust]

Originally Posted by -EJ

I'm not really willing to put in the time and effort to prove my point but I've provided some compelling evidence to support my opinion.

Excellent. Where can I access this, Ed? That is just what I am looking for.

Andy Highfield
www.tortoisetrust.org

[-EJ]

If you search the archives of this list and SW you will find photos of animals that I've raised with the primary focus is heat and hydration... it totals about 15 animals of different species. While that is not proof it is evidence to support my idea.

I will be updating those photos sometime in the future.

It's easy for a keeper to say 'that's not important'... without offering a counter point. Ok... let's say it's protein... what evidence is there to suggest it is protein that is the most important factor?

Once again, if you look at it from a common sense point of view... In reptiles you have to have a proper environmental temperature for any of the metabolic processes to function properly... that has to be the first concern. The second... without moisture/water... again... none of the metabolic processes can work. After all... how much of the animal is water? With this two things in proper balance... now... you can chuck in the food.

There is a point in discussing this round and round... new people jump on board... and offer new ideas. Some of those people understand the topic way better than you or I and can offer some added insight even though there may never really be a conclusion.

Maybe you can offer some evidence to either support or dismiss the ideas.

You seem to have the proper question in mind but to try and answer them all at once is not only difficult, if not impossible but kind of pointless unless you can actually come up with a method to do so.

Originally Posted by Tortoise Trust

The questions are absolutely not "meaningless" nor would the answers be. There are far too many assumptions being made here, and far too little data and evidence of any kind at all being made available. Answers to the questions I raised above, particularly if supported by x-rays (for example) would be incredibly useful and informative.

There is no point at all debating this issue (or indeed, of advancing theories about it) if no-one is prepared to put forward any evidence. Theories without evidence to back them up are 100% worthless. They have no real value at all to anyone (except as endless circular debating topics, perhaps, but there can be no real result from that either in the complete absence of any supporting data).

Many people have been advancing theories and opinions on this, for example Ed states "I personally believe that the two primary factors are Heat, first, and hydration, second. "

I am attempting to understand the basis of that belief and to establish which facts are being relied upon to support it. It may be true. It may be totally mistaken. Without evidence we will never know.

I have specified in detail which areas I think need some clarification.

Andy Highfield
www.tortoisetrust.org

[gtm]

Originally Posted by Tortoise Trust

The questions are absolutely not "meaningless" nor would the answers be. There are far too many assumptions being made here, and far too little data and evidence of any kind at all being made available. Answers to the questions I raised above, particularly if supported by x-rays (for example) would be incredibly useful and informative.

There is no point at all debating this issue (or indeed, of advancing theories about it) if no-one is prepared to put forward any evidence. Theories without evidence to back them up are 100% worthless. They have no real value at all to anyone (except as endless circular debating topics, perhaps, but there can be no real result from that either in the complete absence of any supporting data).

Many people have been advancing theories and opinions on this, for example Ed states "I personally believe that the two primary factors are Heat, first, and hydration, second. "

I am attempting to understand the basis of that belief and to establish which facts are being relied upon to support it. It may be true. It may be totally mistaken. Without evidence we will never know.

I have specified in detail which areas I think need some clarification.

Andy Highfield
www.tortoisetrust.org

I would agree that anecdotal evidence can be helpful but it's bad science to rely on it to prove a theory. As has been pointed out to prove your theory you must have a protocoled experiment with control subjects - relying on responses to a questionaire completed by the average tortoise owner is not good enough & would lead to any 'conclusion' being criticized.

[-EJ]

There has been two presentations that were given by keepers who tried to quantify the idea... One by Richard Fife and the other is Wiesner, which I'm sure you're familiar with.

[Tortoise Trust]

Ed, I would have to say that photos without precise details of husbandry are of very little evidential value at all. A sequence of photos of an animal at various stages of development, with concurrent dietary and environmental data on the other hand would be extremely helpful, as would the other information I listed above.

Have you by any chance actually read pages 48-49 of my "Tortoise & Turtle Feeding Manual" (Published 2000) which does actually discuss in fully referenced detail this whole question of the impact of microclimates and environmental humidity on shell development? You do seem to be suggesting that I have maintained that protein intake alone is the only factor in this. That is not the case at all, as the above pages make perfectly clear.

Since then, over the last year or two, I have done a lot more work on this subject and will be publishing a paper on the outcome of recent work in a well known peer-reviewed journal in due course (probably around 18 months, given the lead times involved). I totally acknowledge that there is an observable effect from high levels of humidity on the phenomena known colloquially as "pyramiding". Knowing that there is an effect and understanding the causes and mechanisms at work, and being able to explain them is another thing entirely, however......

Unfortunately, the two papers that have appeared on this topic thus far failed - rather badly - to do that. I do feel that we need to know the underlying causes of all such pathologies and that we should be very pro-active in finding the answers.

If anyone is interested in providing background information from the keeper and breeder's experience perspective along the lines outlined above, I would be very pleased to hear from them. Full acknowledgment will be given in any resulting publications.

Andy Highfield
www.tortoisetrust.org

[GlasgowGecko]

I understand that the photographic results of long term care schedules would be interesting, but in a scientific context would be meaningless unless you had controlled for ALL other factors that can contribute. When reviewing journals, I would immediately reject any paper, regardless of how compelling the argument if proper controls were not taken.

Andy

[-EJ]

That's why I'm trying to keep it simple... the idea is to provide information that the new keeper can understand and easily duplicate in order to produce a good looking healthy animal.

Can't say that I've read your feeding manual.

As mentioned before... you can easily dismiss a point but I think without counter evidence... what little evidence I have to offer is worth quite a bit more than no evidence at all.

The only point I dismiss is that protein or overfeeding is a primary (not the only) cause of pyramiding and the photos I've provided seem to support my point considering I'm feeding diets that are at least 15% protein which many seem to think that is way to high a protein content... another debatable topic.

I'll look forward to your paper. What peer review journal will it be appearing in?

Another point of debate... pyramiding is not a desease. I can confidently say that. It's something that does occur in the wild and it does not effect the health of the tortoise. It can, if extreme ennough, impact the health of the tortoise but the condition, itself, has no physiological impactact on a tortoise.

Stated differently... a diseased tortoise can be pyramided but a pyramided tortoise is not necessarily diseased.

Originally Posted by Tortoise Trust

Ed, I would have to say that photos without precise details of husbandry are of very little evidential value at all. A sequence of photos of an animal at various stages of development, with concurrent dietary and environmental data on the other hand would be extremely helpful, as would the other information I listed above.

Have you by any chance actually read pages 48-49 of my "Tortoise & Turtle Feeding Manual" (Published 2000) which does actually discuss in fully referenced detail this whole question of the impact of microclimates and environmental humidity on shell development? You do seem to be suggesting that I have maintained that protein intake alone is the only factor in this. That is not the case at all, as the above pages make perfectly clear.

Since then, over the last year or two, I have done a lot more work on this subject and will be publishing a paper on the outcome of recent work in a well known peer-reviewed journal in due course (probably around 18 months, given the lead times involved). I totally acknowledge that there is an observable effect from high levels of humidity on the phenomena known colloquially as "pyramiding". Knowing that there is an effect and understanding the causes and mechanisms at work, and being able to explain them is another thing entirely, however......

Unfortunately, the two papers that have appeared on this topic thus far failed - rather badly - to do that. I do feel that we need to know the underlying causes of all such pathologies and that we should be very pro-active in finding the answers.

If anyone is interested in providing background information from the keeper and breeder's experience perspective along the lines outlined above, I would be very pleased to hear from them. Full acknowledgment will be given in any resulting publications.

Andy Highfield
www.tortoisetrust.org

[Tortoise Trust]

Originally Posted by GlasgowGecko

I understand that the photographic results of long term care schedules would be interesting, but in a scientific context would be meaningless unless you had controlled for ALL other factors that can contribute. When reviewing journals, I would immediately reject any paper, regardless of how compelling the argument if proper controls were not taken.

Andy

With respect, Andy (and George) you are rather missing the point and seem to be assuming that no such trials or controls have been carried out. They have. My request here is nothing to do with that. It relates very specifically to keeper's and breeder's personal experiences of this question and a search for CLARITY in the claims that have been made by others.

One example. I note Ed repeatedly states that he believes "hydration" is very critical. Hydration is of course not the same as environmental humidity. Is it the case that a "well hydrated" tortoise is therefore fine in even low environmental humidities? It is completely unclear from what I have seen so far. That is why I am asking these questions. To resolve such points.

Andy Highfield
www.tortoisetrust.org