Pyramiding and misinformation

[Tina]

Originally Posted by Tortoise Trust

Feeding, growth and environment are inseparable in ectotherms. It is impossible to consider one factor without reference to others. In this sense, it is quite true to state that environment plays a critical role in growth and development. It does so, however, because it influences food intake, feeding behavior, and the way in which the consumed foods are processed. Bone structure and development is not directly affected by temperature, water or ambient humidity, and it is quite erroneous to assume any such direct link, save for the possible influence of humidity upon the keratin outer layer of a turtle’s shell as discussed above.

Environment and nutrition in herbivorous ectotherms are also essentially inseparable. The net consequence is that elevated temperatures result in high rates of feeding (up to a certain point, at which feeding decreases and the animal seeks shelter or enters estivation), higher rates of digestive coefficient, and faster gut transit times. These factors in turn result in higher rates of overall growth and enhanced demand for calcium and other bone-building trace elements. Should these not be available, deficiencies will manifest in the form of fibrous osteodystrophy and visible carapace deformity. Where they are provided at an adequate level to keep pace with the high rates of growth being attained, smooth carapace growth can be successfully achieved, though not without some cost to the renal system as a result of the higher levels of serum urea generated."

Can I ask a very simple question please?

If elevated temperatures result in higher rates of feeding why do the majority of people report a higher rate of feeding when switching from separate uv and basking lights to a combined mv? Surely the temp hasn't increased in this instance just the levels of uv?

[Tortoise Trust]

Originally Posted by -EJ

So... you're saying that a pyramided tortoise is an unhealthy tortoise?

I am saying that all of the ones I have ever had a chance to either x-ray or dissect have been, yes.

Originally Posted by -EJ

I suspect that your study population is definately biased considering that you are a rehabber... can I call you that without being insulting?... You take in what people either don't want or cannot deal with.

I accept this possibility, which is why right now I am very interested in commissioning (paying for, if necessary) x-rays of animals that have pyramiding where it is claimed that they are perfectly healthy.

Originally Posted by -EJ

As said time and again... a tortoise with MBD is usually pyramided... A pyramided tortoise does not always have MBD. You actually pointed this out with certain wild populations.

No, I did not. I observed one population of Testudo graeca graeca with this this, but they were never x-rayed and I did not get the chance to do any form of autopsy on any of them. Bottom line: I have no evidence they had MBD (though I suspect they did).

Originally Posted by -EJ

Well... this is another one of those projects... I willl... one day... post a cross section of a pyramided tortoise with no MBD evident in the shell. Sorry I can't do it now.

That really would be interesting. I would like to see that.

Originally Posted by -EJ

For those that do pyramid in the wild... how do you know it is genetic and not environmental... a little proof... maybe? Why is it that some Leopards pyramid in the wild and others do not?

Good question. It is undoubtedly genetic in some species, e,g. Psammobates tentorious, as it is consistently inherited regardless of environmental or dietary factors as proved by multi-generational breeding in captivity. Also, the bone is healthy, and lacks lesions. Leopards are a bit more problematic as we just do not have enough raw data. It may well be a trait with certain populations. It may well be dietary or environmental in others. In short - no idea!

Originally Posted by -EJ

As to the 'Green Bean Tortoises'... how long did you observe them both on a daily basis and overall?

Have you ever gone back to observe the population?

I monitored them on and off for about three years. Sometimes I saw them often, sometimes not for months. It was rather erratic. I'd like to go back again sometime and see how they are doing.

Andy Highfield
www.tortoisetrust.org

[Tortoise Trust]

Originally Posted by Tina

Can I ask a very simple question please?

If elevated temperatures result in higher rates of feeding why do the majority of people report a higher rate of feeding when switching from separate uv and basking lights to a combined mv? Surely the temp hasn't increased in this instance just the levels of uv?

Hmm.. well... there are a few things (at least) it could be:

1) The heat and UVB source is better "focused" on the MV lamps
2) The UVA content is different (they may perceive the food differently)
3) The visible spectrum of the lamps may be preferred, compared, say to a fluorescent + incandescent source.

I do not think we know for sure, but I agree that is often reported.

Andy Highfield
www.tortoisetrust.org

[-EJ]

AH... the clip from your book is basically what I'm saying and have said for years... only in more simple terms... unless I'm misunderstanding.

I do disagree with you on the rate of growth to an extent... I think... you are saying with the proper humidity you can get good rapid growth if conditions are right to match the nutritional input?

I've never read that before but your point on the keratin explains what many keepers have always thought but never thought of a possible mechanism... novel and original idea.

[-EJ]

How is my 'evidence' different than that published in the books/media you mention?... It's all anecdotal...

AH... you still have not provided any information to either support your point of view or dispute the opposite point of view.

Originally Posted by Tortoise Trust

Well, Andy, I simply thought it entirely reasonable to ask people who are strongly advocating keeper adopt a certain course of action (that may be beneficial, but equally, may be very damaging) to at the very least be prepared to answer some questions on it, and to present some photos or x-rays that go to support what they say.

I have certainly done that, repeatedly. The material is in print in various books, is referenced in multiple veterinary texts (for example, MaCarthur, Wilkinson & Meyer "Medicine & Surgery of Tortoises & Turtles"), and can be found in quite a number of journals, including those from the BHS, IHS, ASRA and the Chelonian Research Foundation.

I do not feel it entirely unreasonable to request answers to what are really very simple questions of great importance and interest to many keepers. You are clearly very interested in this topic yourself. Have you experimented with the impacts of environment upon bone developement in chelonia? What results have you observed?

Best wishes,
Andy Highfield
www.tortoisetrust.org

[-EJ]

If the original heat lamp is the same watage... good question.

Odds are the UV heat lamps are hotter.

Originally Posted by Tina

Can I ask a very simple question please?

If elevated temperatures result in higher rates of feeding why do the majority of people report a higher rate of feeding when switching from separate uv and basking lights to a combined mv? Surely the temp hasn't increased in this instance just the levels of uv?

[Tina]

Originally Posted by -EJ

If the original heat lamp is the same watage... good question.

Odds are the UV heat lamps are hotter.

Not from my personal experience, I swapped to a megaray and the temps are identical but the torts do eat more.

Could the increase in uv-b from the mv's aid better absorption of calcium (via D3) inducing better absorption of food in general which may then increase appetite?

[-EJ]

It could be a strong possibility because when I started using the bulb back around 2000 the one remarkable observance was an increase in activity level which should lead to an increase in eating.

Originally Posted by Tina

Not from my personal experience, I swapped to a megaray and the temps are identical but the torts do eat more.

Could the increase in uv-b from the mv's aid better absorption of calcium (via D3) inducing better absorption of food in general which may then increase appetite?

[-EJ]

What this leads to that... in your experience...

In my experience... not all tortoises with pyramiding have a disease... this is mirrored in the wild with the species mentioned.

How would I collect payment on your offer of x-raying healthy pyramided tortoises. I'm lucky enough to have Steven Divers close by. He would definately be interested in the project.

As to pyramided tortoises in the wild... how can you know the condition is genetic? How could you prove such a thing?

I totally agree that some species are more prone to pyramiding than others... that could be classed as genetic but I'm wondering if you provided a more refined environment that promoted the growth many keepers are looking for... they wouldn't turn out the way we call 'good'

Originally Posted by Tortoise Trust

I am saying that all of the ones I have ever had a chance to either x-ray or dissect have been, yes.



I accept this possibility, which is why right now I am very interested in commissioning (paying for, if necessary) x-rays of animals that have pyramiding where it is claimed that they are perfectly healthy.



No, I did not. I observed one population of Testudo graeca graeca with this this, but they were never x-rayed and I did not get the chance to do any form of autopsy on any of them. Bottom line: I have no evidence they had MBD (though I suspect they did).



That really would be interesting. I would like to see that.



Good question. It is undoubtedly genetic in some species, e,g. Psammobates tentorious, as it is consistently inherited regardless of environmental or dietary factors as proved by multi-generational breeding in captivity. Also, the bone is healthy, and lacks lesions. Leopards are a bit more problematic as we just do not have enough raw data. It may well be a trait with certain populations. It may well be dietary or environmental in others. In short - no idea!



I monitored them on and off for about three years. Sometimes I saw them often, sometimes not for months. It was rather erratic. I'd like to go back again sometime and see how they are doing.

Andy Highfield
www.tortoisetrust.org

[XoxOriptideOxoX]

i know nothing about this but... coudnt ti jsut be like it happnes to them, just naturally like some humnas have disabilitys coudnt soem torts just have disabiltys?