Pyramiding and misinformation

[-EJ]

That's part of the argument... but I don't think so.

Again... pyramiding... itself... is not a disease or disability.

A sick tortoise can have pyramiding but a pyramided tortoise is not always sick.

Originally Posted by XoxOriptideOxoX

i know nothing about this but... coudnt ti jsut be like it happnes to them, just naturally like some humnas have disabilitys coudnt soem torts just have disabiltys?

[fantapants]

Originally Posted by XoxOriptideOxoX

i know nothing about this but... coudnt ti jsut be like it happnes to them, just naturally like some humnas have disabilitys coudnt soem torts just have disabiltys?

of course animals can have disabilities, just like humans. The argument comes down to it being either genetic or environmental. So maybe some leopards and indian star tortoises are prone to a certain amount of pyramidding ( genetic)but that doesnt mean that they are suffering from pyramidding or MBD(environmental), it could just be the way that individual is. If its a genetic fault then very little us humans do will alter the course of growth, but if its environmental, the exact opposite is true.

[XoxOriptideOxoX]

Originally Posted by tinkerbruce

of course animals can have disabilities, just like humans. The argument comes down to it being either genetic or environmental. So maybe some leopards and indian star tortoises are prone to a certain amount of pyramidding ( genetic)but that doesnt mean that they are suffering from pyramidding or MBD(environmental), it could just be the way that individual is. If its a genetic fault then very little us humans do will alter the course of growth, but if its environmental, the exact opposite is true.

I see i see i see ;0 you cake looks realy cool by the way ;0 save soem for me >.<

[-EJ]

There is no doubt that some species are more prone to pyramiding than ohters... and the rest I agree with also...

Originally Posted by tinkerbruce

of course animals can have disabilities, just like humans. The argument comes down to it being either genetic or environmental. So maybe some leopards and indian star tortoises are prone to a certain amount of pyramidding ( genetic)but that doesnt mean that they are suffering from pyramidding or MBD(environmental), it could just be the way that individual is. If its a genetic fault then very little us humans do will alter the course of growth, but if its environmental, the exact opposite is true.

[Testudo Man]

Originally Posted by Tortoise Trust

Quite happy to do that, Tina. Here's the very specific questions that would be very helpful if addressed by people using this method:

• Exactly how much localised environmental humidity have you noted is required to bring about a beneficial effect?

• How exactly is this provided, and for how many hours a day?

• How were the animals kept? Indoors, outdoors, or a combination of both?

• How was the vitamin D-3 requirement met (lighting, oral supplementation, etc) ?

• What methods were used to record environmental conditions (temperature, humidity) ? If possible please provide manufacturer and model number of measuring device employed.

• What role do you feel hydration (water balance) status plays in this? I am not referring here to external environmental humidity, but to the tortoise’s overall metabolic fluid balance.

• What steps were taken to maintain overall hydration status? What drinking or soaking regime was used?

• At what size and age did the animal(s) commence on this regime, and what is their size and age now? If you have accurate charts of growth and weight gain that would be extremely valuable.

• What species were involved?

• Please describe the diet provided.

• Please describe what vitamin or mineral supplements were used (if any) with approximate amounts and frequencies.

• Photographs of the tortoises in question at various stages since beginning this regime would be extremely valuable.

• If any tortoise has died (for any reason at all) while on this regime, did you have a full autopsy conducted and are the results available?

• Do you have any radiographs (X-rays) of the tortoises in question? *
• What temperatures were provided, and by what means (heating sources, etc.)

As part of our ongoing longterm research into this topic the Tortoise Trust is prepared to meet the costs of obtaining radiographs of tortoises raised on specific dietary and environmental regimes. Please contact me privately for full details if interested in pursuing that aspect. As many will know, I have personally studied this particular topic for very many years and while very many of the mechanisms involved are extremely well understood (because they are absolutely identical to the same processes in mammals), there are certain unique features of the chelonian physiology that have made understanding the precise mechanism of so-called 'pyramiding' quite difficult to nail down. I look forward to your input on this topic, Ed, as I really think we can move this subject on at this stage.



Andy Highfield
www.tortoisetrust.org

As a keeper/breeder of UK captive bred tortoises, I would be more than willing to offer any of my personal experiences/data/photographs that I may have, in regards to those questions asked by Andy H. in the above quoted post.

Although, it has been suggested that no two keepers would be using the exact same husbandry, therefore the findings would be invalid. Surely we are all striving for the same goals? Are we not trying to do the best we can, by growing on hatchlings to resemble that of their wild 'smooth' cousins? I would think that any data gathered, on the possible causes of pyramiding, could only benefit the entire tortoise community. I would welcome any positive findings that may help prevent pyramiding in tortoises, and would have no trouble in including these into my own tortoise keeping.

There must be at least a minimum of ten long term keepers who frequent these forums, that have had various degrees of success in breeding several species/sub-species of tortoise. I am surprised that none have come forward as yet, to offer their own data in regards to the questions being asked by Andy H.

True, we as keepers, seem to differ in our approach in tortoise husbandry. I myself, use open top enclosures, a natural weed based diet, restriction on food intake, advocate hibernation, and have recently been trying different approaches to areas in humidity. Although I have to confess that I do not take the scientific approach , therefore weights, temperatures, levels, times etc. are rarely written down...I do take a fair amount of photographs though, here are several photos of Mediterranean spur- thighed Ibera's (Different parents for each tortoise, hence the colouration)...The young tortoises were both 6 months old, and then 12 months old, I am quite happy with their smooth steady growth, using my methods as stated earlier in this post...T.T.

At 6 months.


At 12 months.


At 6 months.


At 12 months.

[fantapants]

Originally Posted by Terrific tortoise

As a keeper/breeder of UK captive bred tortoises, I would be more than willing to offer any of my personal experiences/data/photographs that I may have, in regards to those questions asked by Andy H. in the above quoted post.

Although, it has been suggested that no two keepers would be using the exact same husbandry, therefore the findings would be invalid. Surely we are all striving for the same goals? Are we not trying to do the best we can, by growing on hatchlings to resemble that of their wild 'smooth' cousins? I would think that any data gathered, on the possible causes of pyramiding, could only benefit the entire tortoise community. I would welcome any positive findings that may help prevent pyramiding in tortoises, and would have no trouble in including these into my own tortoise keeping.

There must be at least a minimum of ten long term keepers who frequent these forums, that have had various degrees of success in breeding several species/sub-species of tortoise. I am surprised that none have come forward as yet, to offer their own data in regards to the questions being asked by Andy H.

True, we as keepers, seem to differ in our approach in tortoise husbandry. I myself, use open top enclosures, a natural weed based diet, restriction on food intake, advocate hibernation, and have recently been trying different approaches to areas in humidity. Although I have to confess that I do not take the scientific approach , therefore weights, temperatures, levels, times etc. are rarely written down...I do take a fair amount of photographs though, here are several photos of Mediterranean spur- thighed Ibera's (Different parents for each tortoise, hence the colouration)...The young tortoises were both 6 months old, and then 12 months old, I am quite happy with their smooth steady growth, using my methods as stated earlier in this post...T.T.

At 6 months.


At 12 months.


At 6 months.


At 12 months.

gorgeous!!

and i have been keeping leopards for about 6 years, my records are pretty comprehensive but i lack consistent photos. my computer was corrupted and i lost all of my photos but luckily i always keep my records on the pc and also in a book. I have not bred any torts myself but i have a few rescues that have visible differences in their shell development since i got them. And i have always offered a very warm , dark and damp moist area, even before i was a net junkie. I have found the older ones take advantage of it alot more than the youngsters.....and they deffinatley appreciate it more.

[neep_neep]

For those who are interested (and who have access to online journals), check out Wiesner and Iben, 2003: Influence of environmental humidity and dietary protein on pyramidal growth of carapaces in African spurred tortoises
(Geochelone sulcata).

There is a summary of the paper on this webpage if folks cannot access the full paper (or are disinclined to wade through it ): http://www.reptileuvinfo.com/docs/hu...ta-tortois.pdf

[-EJ]

AH has dismissed this... one of the references I listed.

Food for thought...

Originally Posted by neep_neep

For those who are interested (and who have access to online journals), check out Wiesner and Iben, 2003: Influence of environmental humidity and dietary protein on pyramidal growth of carapaces in African spurred tortoises
(Geochelone sulcata).

There is a summary of the paper on this webpage if folks cannot access the full paper (or are disinclined to wade through it ): http://www.reptileuvinfo.com/docs/hu...ta-tortois.pdf

[neep_neep]

Originally Posted by -EJ

AH has dismissed this... one of the references I listed.

Food for thought...

Ah yes - just read back through... Missed that!

Tortoise Trust, what exactly are your thoughts on the paper? As I could not work out from your post where, and on which points you feel it failed. It is probably because it is late, but I sometimes need things spelled out

[-EJ]

I've been discussing this topic with Richare Fife (a US tortoise breeder) for over 20 years. He presented a paper at a tortoise conference in Germany a couple of years ago... that was one of the presentations dismissed by AH

The other paper you mention... also dismissed.

The problem with the dismissal is that there is no rebuttle as to why the information is dismissed.

Originally Posted by neep_neep

Ah yes - just read back through... Missed that!

Tortoise Trust, what exactly are your thoughts on the paper? As I could not work out from your post where, and on which points you feel it failed. It is probably because it is late, but I sometimes need things spelled out