Pyramiding and misinformation

[-EJ]

Recently a post was brought to my attention from another list.

The gist of it was that overfeeding and protein causes pyramiding... totally false.

The thread in question went on and on by the local experts...

What really caught my attention was that a person posted the following references and this was totally dissmissed. What also caught my attention was that this list is growing...

From Jerry D Fife, Indian Star Tortoises, 2007:
(Yes I know it's not a med. tort book, but neither is the following quote specific to them)

"The role of humidity in preventing pyramiding, established by Richard Fife through numerous trials in raising hundreds of hatchling African Spurred and Leopard Tortoises, has since been confirmed and effectively applied to other species. This theory has been reconfirmed by hobbyists in the US and Europe.

Jon Coote, Chairman of the International Herp. Society made the following statement in Reptiles Magazine:
"I am concerned about the extremely low levels of protein advocated for feeding captive tortoises. It had been thought that high protein
diets caused carapace deformities commonly called pyramiding. Recent research has shown that this is caused by tortoises not having access
to a microclimate of high humidity to moisten the carapace during periods of growth."

In 2003, the University of Veterinary Medicine in Vienna, Austria, quantified the importance of humidity in the environment of hatchling tortoises. They showed in their research that high levels of protein had little effect on pyramiding. (Wiesener CS and Iben C, 2003).
Researchers theorised that during periods when food is scarce there is little or no growth in hatchling tortoises. During periods when food is plentiful, the environmental humidity is high, growth is rapid, and pyramiding is rare. The researchers hypothesised "that during dry conditions, dehydration reduced both intra and inter-cellular pressures on soft cartillage at the areas of bone growth which could lead to collapse of the soft tissue and subsequent ossification in the collapsed position".


The important point of this post is to caution keepers to try and find list such as this one that does not restrict or censor information so you get a complete picture of the information that is available. Many tortoise keepers lists will moderate, edit or ban members who do not post material that is appropriate to the 'teachings' of that particular list. I personally would stear clear of these list because you are not getting the complete information that you need to make an educated decision as to how to care for your tortoise.

[cannotstopbuyingballs]

Originally Posted by -EJ

Recently a post was brought to my attention from another list.

The gist of it was that overfeeding and protein causes pyramiding... totally false.

The thread in question went on and on by the local experts...

What really caught my attention was that a person posted the following references and this was totally dissmissed. What also caught my attention was that this list is growing...

From Jerry D Fife, Indian Star Tortoises, 2007:
(Yes I know it's not a med. tort book, but neither is the following quote specific to them)

"The role of humidity in preventing pyramiding, established by Richard Fife through numerous trials in raising hundreds of hatchling African Spurred and Leopard Tortoises, has since been confirmed and effectively applied to other species. This theory has been reconfirmed by hobbyists in the US and Europe.

Jon Coote, Chairman of the International Herp. Society made the following statement in Reptiles Magazine:
"I am concerned about the extremely low levels of protein advocated for feeding captive tortoises. It had been thought that high protein
diets caused carapace deformities commonly called pyramiding. Recent research has shown that this is caused by tortoises not having access
to a microclimate of high humidity to moisten the carapace during periods of growth."

In 2003, the University of Veterinary Medicine in Vienna, Austria, quantified the importance of humidity in the environment of hatchling tortoises. They showed in their research that high levels of protein had little effect on pyramiding. (Wiesener CS and Iben C, 2003).
Researchers theorised that during periods when food is scarce there is little or no growth in hatchling tortoises. During periods when food is plentiful, the environmental humidity is high, growth is rapid, and pyramiding is rare. The researchers hypothesised "that during dry conditions, dehydration reduced both intra and inter-cellular pressures on soft cartillage at the areas of bone growth which could lead to collapse of the soft tissue and subsequent ossification in the collapsed position".


The important point of this post is to caution keepers to try and find list such as this one that does not restrict or censor information so you get a complete picture of the information that is available. Many tortoise keepers lists will moderate, edit or ban members who do not post material that is appropriate to the 'teachings' of that particular list. I personally would stear clear of these list because you are not getting the complete information that you need to make an educated decision as to how to care for your tortoise.

Yet again Ed you post an interesting alternative. I would do anything to try and stop lumpy shell

[-EJ]

It is a very simple solution...

Hot and hydrated... nothing more and nothing less.

What's difficult to get across is what is hot and what is hydrated...

Originally Posted by clive1973

Yet again Ed you post an interesting alternative. I would do anything to try and stop lumpy shell

[littlefoot]

I agree about humidity being a big factor in reducing or stopping pyramiding.I did try to get this information across to some of the forum members a while ago but I think it fell on deaf ears.

[cannotstopbuyingballs]

things are different here now

[Mason]

another case of what "bobs mate dave once read on the forum" becoming accepted as fact.

Don't forget all WC and CF torts are little disease machines that drop dead, yemen chams will drop dead if you handle them and CF royals are all dodgy feeders!

[cannotstopbuyingballs]

Originally Posted by Mason

another case of what "bobs mate dave once read on the forum" becoming accepted as fact.

Can you explain that, I do not get you and our american cousin will not either !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Mason]

I mean that people simply accept thins they read without researching or questioning. Something gets posted, read by people and they go out and repeat it ad-infinitum, eventually so many people are doing this that these things become accepted as "fact" never questioned and aggressively defended regardless of their factual status.

[cannotstopbuyingballs]

Originally Posted by Mason

I mean that people simply accept thins they read without researching or questioning. Something gets posted, read by people and they go out and repeat it ad-infinitum, eventually so many people are doing this that these things become accepted as "fact" never questioned and aggressively defended regardless of their factual status.

I see your point

[fantapants]

i fully agree with the points made above. its all too easy to put the blame for pyramidding on the one cause (bad diet) when many factors must be taken into account. In general i believe that it is all a matter of balance. A tortoise is not going to be severly pyramided if it is fed the occasional bit of lettuce any more than wild tortoises that eat slugs and snails are!
For me the most important factors affecting my tortoise are

A, the correct temperatures and micro climates, not just
basking but also ambient!
B, varied (fibrous)diet with plenty of nutrobal with D3
C, plenty of natural uvb supplemented in winter with a good uv lamp
D, Lots of space to excercise and graze, eating wild protein if they choose to.

i also think for alot of people its all to easy to follow the "teachings" of the (often narrow minded) group they come to be a member of. then they start to spout the ten tortoise commandments without actually doing any legitimate, in depth research in vetinary journals etc. Its easy to fall into that trap but i have to say of all of the groups i have come across this is by far the most open minded and easiest to express true opinions.