Substrate Discussion

[Tina]

After reading the latest post re hemp on the TT I thought I'd post it on here so anyone who doesn't read on the TT Group can see it... we all read and debated the TT's initial posting on here so thought an update was appropriate.

" I've now seen the post mortem photos of Rollo. I've also heard from the vet involved that he has previously encountered two deaths in Leopard tortoises where this material was implicated.

I think that is now absolutely clear that this material is potentially
HIGHLY dangerous and we urge any members still using it to change to something
safer ASAP.

See: _http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/hemp.htm_
(http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/hemp.htm)

Andy "

Can we please not turn this into another thread where the TT get slated as scaremongers? A discussion on what alternative substrates people use/have used and their conclusions on using them would be good though.

I'll start it off...

First of all I used half hemp and half sand/soil in my tort table, I didn't like the way the sand/soil dried out so quickly so changed to all hemp. Then after reading about little Rolo I changed to all sand/soil - again I didn't like it as it got too dry and dusty too quickly and irritated the torts eyes, I also struggled with the weight of it in the table (after two slipped discs in 18 months I am extremely careful about lifting anything heavy!) so I changed back to hemp.

For the last few weeks I've been using aspen, I do like it as it's very soft and doesn't seem to get dragged around the table (into water bowls and onto the feeding slate) as much as hemp did, but I think this is because it tends to 'clump' together which doesn't make it so great for burrowing down into. Another think I like about it is if the torts have been in their pool the aspen doesn't stick to them and get stuck in their necks when they're wet like the hemp used to.

The other substrate I've thought about using is Readigrass or Justgrass (thanks for the great link in your thread Ali ) and that may be next on my list.

Has anyone tried anything different? What substrates have you had success with and which ones have been a failure?

Please try to keep this a positive thread.

[SWsarah]

There has already been a thread on this http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/shell...ates-hemp.html

[gtm]

I use aspen as well.

[den_bish]

I changed from aspen to soil and sand as a) I wanted a more 'natural' look (oviously nothing to do with tort care!!) and b) I just tought I would change it and see how Thomas got on. He loves the soil/sand but really didn't get on with digging down into it at bedtime and used to dig about an inch and then stop and the sleep head down with his bum in the air (no smutty comments!!) I changed the bedding area back to the aspen and normal service re bed time digging has resumed. I am quite happy wit this at the moment but may change it in the winter to the readigrass tat you mention as I imagine it's warmer but we'll see.

[Tina]

Originally Posted by blondesarah

There has already been a thread on this http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/shell...ates-hemp.html

Yes Sarah, I do realise that, but we have had a lot of new users in the shelled section since May. Plus if the same things weren't discussed more than once it would be a very quiet forum.

[-EJ]

Any substrate can cause impaction. If the tortoise is hungry it will resort to eating the substrate to satisfy that hunger.

There are many tortoise keepers who condone restricting the diet in an attempt to control the growth rate... this is a mistake. Those are the situations which have a high potential of impaction problems.

Tortoises will usually feed until they are full... then they will rest and digest.

This, of course, is facilitated by temperature first and then water... provided you have a healthy tortoise.

Once again... the OP does not take into account other factors in the husbandry of the tortoise or... they were not reported. More tortoises have successfully been kept on hemp and thrive than those that have not.

Originally Posted by Tina

After reading the latest post re hemp on the TT I thought I'd post it on here so anyone who doesn't read on the TT Group can see it... we all read and debated the TT's initial posting on here so thought an update was appropriate.

" I've now seen the post mortem photos of Rollo. I've also heard from the vet involved that he has previously encountered two deaths in Leopard tortoises where this material was implicated.

I think that is now absolutely clear that this material is potentially
HIGHLY dangerous and we urge any members still using it to change to something
safer ASAP.

See: _http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/hemp.htm_
(http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/hemp.htm)

Andy "

Can we please not turn this into another thread where the TT get slated as scaremongers? A discussion on what alternative substrates people use/have used and their conclusions on using them would be good though.

I'll start it off...

First of all I used half hemp and half sand/soil in my tort table, I didn't like the way the sand/soil dried out so quickly so changed to all hemp. Then after reading about little Rolo I changed to all sand/soil - again I didn't like it as it got too dry and dusty too quickly and irritated the torts eyes, I also struggled with the weight of it in the table (after two slipped discs in 18 months I am extremely careful about lifting anything heavy!) so I changed back to hemp.

For the last few weeks I've been using aspen, I do like it as it's very soft and doesn't seem to get dragged around the table (into water bowls and onto the feeding slate) as much as hemp did, but I think this is because it tends to 'clump' together which doesn't make it so great for burrowing down into. Another think I like about it is if the torts have been in their pool the aspen doesn't stick to them and get stuck in their necks when they're wet like the hemp used to.

The other substrate I've thought about using is Readigrass or Justgrass (thanks for the great link in your thread Ali ) and that may be next on my list.

Has anyone tried anything different? What substrates have you had success with and which ones have been a failure?

Please try to keep this a positive thread.

[fantapants]

when i got Dorris and bernard my first two big leos, i was informed by the previous keeper that they used aubiose as bedding. i didnt see a problem with it as i had never used it. When i got them home it took 24 days for the damned stuff to pass through them. Their poo was thick with it and they were obviously struggling to pass it all, even though they were fed on wet foods like lettuce. It would have been much less of a problem if the woman had used a feeding plate to stop them eating great big mouthfuls of the stuff though.

The very same week i saw the problems that D and B had from the stuff, i moved all of my torts onto compacted soil/sand in tables and natural earth outside. the ONLY artificial substrate my tortoises have that I supply is readigrass or hay. i know that its 100% digestible and is actually benneficial if they eat it. I have used nothing else for over two years and NOTHING would get me to change back! its ultra cheap, one bale lasts me a year and is £8. its easy to clean, dustfree, smells delish and is compostable. There is no risk of impaction AT ALL, know i just have to worry about the torts eating the odd stone instead of worrying about the bedding getting eaten.

i did use an aubiose/megazorb mix as substrate for my royal pythons as they dont eat inside the viv, but i have ditched it after my royal lemon pastel got a big splinter right between his eyes. He has been left with a scar too.

Ultimately by adding these luxuries to our animal housing i geuss a huge amount of it is for OUR benefit, not the animal! they dont percieve comfort the way we do, or enjoy snuggling into something soft the way a dog would. we increase the risk of something going wrong every time weadd another foreign body, but ultimatley its all down to personal choice. My outoor leo enclosure has a natural earth floor, plants, bushes and a plantpot to hide in. the shed has a basking light, ceramic night heater and readigrass on the floor. nice and simple, less to go wrong!

So i agree with the TT, but its down to personal choice if other people follow the advice. I aint gonna judge anybody who decides to keep using it as long as they accept the responsibility if it goes wrong.

Wow, long winded or what, can you tell the babies asleep!

[incrisis]

We started off with a shop bought soil/sand substrate but after about a week it started to smell so got rid of it
We then tried forest bed, the stuff that comes in dried brick form and you need to soak for a bit before use. They are still on that atm and there is no smell.
We also have some compacted grass/hay pellets, can't remember the name of it, which we use in the carrier we take them to thevet in.
As far as we are aware neither Tort has eaten any of it.
Every morning we put a big pile of weeds on their piece of slate which they graze on all day.

[fantapants]

Also i should add, i fully agree with Ed too. too often in cases of impaction and/or health issues, the whole picture is not taken into account. Its all to easy to focus on one or two details and forget the culminative effect of lots of small issues that add up to one big disaster.

[Vicky12]

How does Hemp compare to Aspen?

Im thinking of changing to Aspen once my current bag of chipsy has run out.