Do i REALLY need a thermostat?

[Morgoth]

I have also never used a thermostats on a heatmat and its never done any harm to one of my snakes, or lizards, over the past almost 10 years.

Maybe its a miracle, as after reading this, I should have gone down one morning long ago, and repeatedly afterwards over the years, to find my snakes a melted puddle of liquid on the viv floor.

My guess with regards to that burmese python (was it?) that got severely burned on that heatmat would be that due to the sheer wait of the snake, and, I assume, that it spent alot of its time on the mat, that it distorted the internal thermo workings of the mat creating some areas which grew extremely hot, and others which had no heat at all in them. Its possible in this fasion that the heatmat grew hot enough to burn the snake in certain areas.

But I've never had a burn on any of my snakes or lizards. And they have virtually ALL had unstatted heatmats in the viv (always with newspaper on top, if not substrate as well). Please answer that before you come the high morale animal welfare ground with me.

[Ssthisto]

Originally Posted by Morgoth

But I've never had a burn on any of my snakes or lizards. And they have virtually ALL had unstatted heatmats in the viv (always with newspaper on top, if not substrate as well). Please answer that before you come the high morale animal welfare ground with me.

I've never been fatally injured in a car accident either, and I've been riding in cars for nearly 31 years.

It doesn't mean it couldn't happen - or that I don't need to take safety precautions like wearing my seatbelt.

The real difference, though, is that yes, *I* can choose to wear my seatbelt or not. However, your snakes cannot choose to have the thermostat or not - you are responsible for doing that for them. Just as my parents were responsible for ensuring I was wearing my seatbelt when I was too young to put it on or to understand why I needed it.

And for every animal of yours that's been unharmed by a heat mat that isn't on a 'stat ... how many animals belonging to other people died?

Also: you didn't answer my question. What brand of heat mat are you using that doesn't overheat when it's covered with much more than the recommended amount of substrate and is not regulated by a thermostat? I would like to buy that brand for the new racking systems we are setting up, so that I have another level of security BEYOND having my racking systems on thermostats.

[Morgoth]

I use Habistat and Microclimate, both of which I have measured the temperatures many time with the probe in contact with the newspaper, below which burns that great furnace called a heatmat.

That car example is terrible.

If my reptiles have been using heatmats for nigh on a decade, why should one day they suddenly get burned by one?

A car accident is completely different. Have you been hit repeatedly by cars over the past 31 years? Or have you been constantly in major car accidents over the last 31 years? If not then thats not the same, as my reptiles HAVE been using heatmats for a long time already.

[Ssthisto]

Originally Posted by Morgoth

That car example is terrible.

If my reptiles have been using heatmats for nigh on a decade, why should one day they suddenly get burned by one?

A car accident is completely different. Have you been hit repeatedly by cars over the past 31 years? Or have you been constantly in major car accidents over the last 31 years? If not then thats not the same, as my reptiles HAVE been using heatmats for a long time already.

I'm not sure the car accident metaphor IS terrible, to be honest.

You're using equipment that has the potential to overheat and hurt or kill the reptile enclosed in the cage.
I ride in cars that have the potential to get into accidents which can be seriously injurious or fatal.

You're using equipment for which there are available safety measures that lessen the risk of your reptiles being fatally injured.
I ride in cars that have equipment which lessen the risk - should there be a accident - of my being fatally injured.

Thermostats for reptile equipment are a fairly recent invention, and sure people may have gotten along without them for years beforehand - but if the safety measures are available, I don't see a good reason for NOT using them.

We reduce the risks for our reptiles in other ways - we don't house them with bigger predators if we're sensible; we don't feed them live unless absolutely necessary because live rodents can bite; we don't subject them to the starvation or dehydration they would undoubtedly experience in the wild and we do our best to eliminate parasites that certainly exist on them in the wild. A thermostat is one more safety measure to ensure that conditions in a box the animal cannot escape from do not increase in temperature to a dangerously hot level.

[Lynne]

Originally Posted by Morgoth

I use Habistat and Microclimate, both of which I have measured the temperatures many time with the probe in contact with the newspaper, below which burns that great furnace called a heatmat.

That car example is terrible.

If my reptiles have been using heatmats for nigh on a decade, why should one day they suddenly get burned by one?

A car accident is completely different. Have you been hit repeatedly by cars over the past 31 years? Or have you been constantly in major car accidents over the last 31 years? If not then thats not the same, as my reptiles HAVE been using heatmats for a long time already.

weird. it was a habistat mat that heated to over 120 when i tried it without a stat as an experiment. a small mat too, not a large one. i also have microclimate mats that i would not use with out a stat. i think you and your snakes have been very lucky.

[Morgoth]

Originally Posted by Ssthisto

I'm not sure the car accident metaphor IS terrible, to be honest.

You're using equipment that has the potential to overheat and hurt or kill the reptile enclosed in the cage.
I ride in cars that have the potential to get into accidents which can be seriously injurious or fatal.

You're using equipment for which there are available safety measures that lessen the risk of your reptiles being fatally injured.
I ride in cars that have equipment which lessen the risk - should there be a accident - of my being fatally injured.

Thermostats for reptile equipment are a fairly recent invention, and sure people may have gotten along without them for years beforehand - but if the safety measures are available, I don't see a good reason for NOT using them.

We reduce the risks for our reptiles in other ways - we don't house them with bigger predators if we're sensible; we don't feed them live unless absolutely necessary because live rodents can bite; we don't subject them to the starvation or dehydration they would undoubtedly experience in the wild and we do our best to eliminate parasites that certainly exist on them in the wild. A thermostat is one more safety measure to ensure that conditions in a box the animal cannot escape from do not increase in temperature to a dangerously hot level.

Everytime you go out in your car your taking the same risk you were, 13?, years ago.
With a heatmat, if it hasn't burnt an animal within, a year? Two years? Then it won't suddenly start burning them later on, unless it a) degrades, and b) the fasion its used in is altered.
Therefore your not taking the same risk over and over again as you are with driving a car - failed analogy.

As per my very first post in this thread - its to do with heat generated and heat dissapation. A heatmat, or bulb, or both, cannot make the viv get hotter and hotter - they reach a temperature maximum, usually well within an hour (unless external temps play a large part in the viv internal temp).
Therefore if you find out what that maximum temperature cap is, then you can run a viv safely without a thermostat. Depending on ventilation and viv size/structure it may take a 40watt for Corn Snakes, a 60watt for Royal pythons or a 100watt for desert dwelling snakes.

Its to do with trial and error - find out what that cap is, then you know your playing it safe as the heating elements are not capable of producing more heat than that maximum.

[Morgoth]

Originally Posted by Lynne

weird. it was a habistat mat that heated to over 120 when i tried it without a stat as an experiment. a small mat too, not a large one. i also have microclimate mats that i would not use with out a stat. i think you and your snakes have been very lucky.

Must have been born under a lucky star

Get a heat mat, say a 2foot one. Plug it in and put it on the carpet (make sure there are no hot pipes under the floorbaords if your doing it upstairs). Place, say six, sheets of newspaper completely over the heatmat. Give it 30 minutes. Rest the probe of the thermometer onto the newspaper and give it 5 minutes. If your then seeing temperatures of over 100f then there is some black magic going on somewhere.

[Lynne]

Originally Posted by Morgoth

Must have been born under a lucky star

Get a heat mat, say a 2foot one. Plug it in and put it on the carpet (make sure there are no hot pipes under the floorbaords if your doing it upstairs). Place, say six, sheets of newspaper completely over the heatmat. Give it 30 minutes. Rest the probe of the thermometer onto the newspaper and give it 5 minutes. If your then seeing temperatures of over 100f then there is some black magic going on somewhere.

as i am lying here doing nothing, i have flu, and i have a spare two foot mat upstairs, i will go bring it down and do that now. but......do your vivs have carpet under thier heat mats???!!!!
i shall place it on my wooden floor, then on the carpet.

[sparkle]

your question

Do I REALLY need a thermostat?

Qusetion

Do heat mats fail or overheat?

Answer

YES

all electrical products that involve heating CAN overheat or fail to stay at the temp they are meant to..

therefore why would u put your animals at risk.. it MAY never happen.. it MAY happen 10 times..

the question is not do you NEED one.. the question is do you like to risk your animals wellbeing and safety.. the longer you go without having any issues the closer the day is to having one..

This is a debate about RISK not NEED

[Meko]

Originally Posted by Morgoth

Must have been born under a lucky star

Get a heat mat, say a 2foot one. Plug it in and put it on the carpet (make sure there are no hot pipes under the floorbaords if your doing it upstairs). Place, say six, sheets of newspaper completely over the heatmat. Give it 30 minutes. Rest the probe of the thermometer onto the newspaper and give it 5 minutes. If your then seeing temperatures of over 100f then there is some black magic going on somewhere.

can i ask what newspaper you use?
i've read your replies on this thread and you seem confident that a few layers of newspaper stops the heat leaving through them. After much consideration, head scratching and number crunching i've come to the conclusion that if i wallpaper my house with 6 layers of the newspaper you use, i won't need to turn my central heating on again - ever - as the newspaper will stop the heat leaving from within the house.