Do i REALLY need a thermostat?

[Onissarle]

Morgoth,

Your entire argument seems based on the fact that YOUR heat mat that you happen to be testing right now doesn't get above 86.5 degrees. To be honest, that is a completely irrelevant point. It doesn't change the fact that MANY heat mats CAN and DO get to dangerous temperatures if unregulated and especially if being used by an inexperienced keeper. Do you really believe that you can garuntee the heat mat any random keeper happens to buy will never reach a temperature over that 86.5 degree mark?

I'm glad the heatmats you're using right now stay fairly cool and that your snakes don't directly suffer from the lack of a thermostat, although I'm not convinced of that.

When I asked you how you cope if the day is predicted to be hot, you said you just set your timer to turn off the mat in the morning. Do you check the weather forecast when you get up each day? What if the day turns out to be overcast and rainy when they said it would be sunny or vice versa?

Your snakes go without heat all day and get too cold or have the mats going full power while the ambient temperature goes way up. Either way, your snakes get exposed to temperatures that are too low or too high, you're just lucky that that haven't gone too high or too high for long enough to cause them permanent damage. Some snakes are a lot more sensitive to temperature variation than others and the young snakes usually bought by new keepers are especially vulnerable.

Just this weekend I saw yet another example of what happens when heatmats are misused. On Saturday, I was in my favourite pet shop getting some live food and substrate and having the usual chat with the staff. A nice young guy came in, looking for a young ratsnake to replace one that had just died. As we talked to him, we found he had bought the first snake and 'full setup' from a rather less reputable shop in the area and they had told him he didn't need a thermostat.

Can you guess how the snake died? Even though the heatmat was placed underneath the faunarium with air room as he was instructed, it managed to heat up the inside enough to overheat and kill the young Dione ratsnake. The guy bought a thermostat while I was there, it's a shame the snake had to die for him to realise the advice he got from the other shop was bad.

It is incredibly irresponsible to say to new keepers that they shouldn't buy thermostats because their heatmats couldn't possibly get hot enough to harm their animal.

Lots of people can get away with keeping a snake on an unregulated heatmat. That doesn't mean that they don't or can't reach temperatures dangerous to many snakes. When buying a random heatmat and putting it in a random viv or under a random faunarium, you have no idea whether it will stay at an acceptable temperature or get too hot to be safe for the inhabitant. So why take the risk? Spend a little extra and make sure that the heat source can't possibly get too hot.

When taking on an animal, we take on a duty of care. It is our duty to provide it with the best conditions we are able to, not just the bare minimum we can get away with without killing them. Not using a termostat is taking a risk, it's gambling. Sometimes you win and sometimes you lose. I don't think gambling is acceptable when the stakes are the life of an animal in my care.

[Morgoth]

Originally Posted by Onissarle

It is incredibly irresponsible to say to new keepers that they shouldn't buy thermostats because their heatmats couldn't possibly get hot enough to harm their animal.

/facepalm

[Ssthisto]

Ok, let me clarify my dear partner's statement.

It is incredibly irresponsible to even SUGGEST to any new keeper that a thermostat is anything other than a required piece of equipment or that heat mats do not exceed safe temperatures.

The experiences of the majority of posters here on this thread imply that the vast majority of heat mats are capable of exceeding safe temperatures even when used as per the manufacturer's guidelines... and some of us have posted photographs to show this.

Someone who's experienced might be able to manage without one... but then again, someone who's experienced with driving while intoxicated might manage to drive just fine right up until there's a fatal accident.

[Morgoth]

Originally Posted by Ssthisto

It is incredibly irresponsible to even SUGGEST to any new keeper that a thermostat is anything other than a required piece of equipment or that heat mats do not exceed safe temperatures.

And who said I was suggesting it to beginners? From my understanding (which is somewhat lessened after reading this thread) I was speaking to supposed experienced keepers. Someone asked me earlier what I would say if a beginner in a shop came up to me asking for a snake and full setup. If they seemed completely oblivious I doubt I would trust them to maintain temperatures without a stat, but it would depend entirely on the set-up being provided and other factors like how much time they spend at home etc.

[hogboy]

Originally Posted by Morgoth

And who said I was suggesting it to beginners? From my understanding (which is somewhat lessened after reading this thread) I was speaking to supposed experienced keepers. Someone asked me earlier what I would say if a beginner in a shop came up to me asking for a snake and full setup. If they seemed completely oblivious I doubt I would trust them to maintain temperatures without a stat, but it would depend entirely on the set-up being provided and other factors like how much time they spend at home etc.

Suggesting it to anyone is like Very bad advice.
Bo matter how long you have been keeping reptiles, none of us have the magical ability to control the temp of a heatmat, without a stat.
I've been keeping reps since the early 80's, and this elusive skill still eludes me.
I'll just mention this again...
I left an unstatted heat cable for a few minutes,and recorded a temp of 136.7F .

[reptiles-ink]

Originally Posted by Morgoth

And who said I was suggesting it to beginners? From my understanding (which is somewhat lessened after reading this thread) I was speaking to supposed experienced keepers. Someone asked me earlier what I would say if a beginner in a shop came up to me asking for a snake and full setup. If they seemed completely oblivious I doubt I would trust them to maintain temperatures without a stat, but it would depend entirely on the set-up being provided and other factors like how much time they spend at home etc.

I'm often home all day but it doesnt mean I dont need a thermostat.
There is no 'other factor' to account for.
A heatmat, ceramic, bulb or whatever all have the potential to heat a viv beyond requirements so a stat should always be used.

[reptiles-ink]

[quote=hogboy;3397464]none of us have the magical ability to control the temp of a heatmat, without a stat.
quote]

You need to concentrate harder and become one with the heater

[hogboy]

[quote=reptiles-ink;3397514]

Originally Posted by hogboy

none of us have the magical ability to control the temp of a heatmat, without a stat.
quote]

You need to concentrate harder and become one with the heater

Damn those Buddist herpers and their Mystic ways

[Ssthisto]

Originally Posted by Morgoth

And who said I was suggesting it to beginners? From my understanding (which is somewhat lessened after reading this thread) I was speaking to supposed experienced keepers.

You're reading an internet forum where the average user is probably 15 to 17 years of age. And since I'm aware that age doesn't matter, it also is relevant that many, many MANY posts on this forum are from folks who have just bought their first (insert animal here) and want to know how to take care of it.

Everything you say is being read by beginners, especially in a "stickied" thread.

Experienced keepers either know they need a thermostat (and are less likely to read the thread, unless they're nosyparkers and/or people who have pet topics - like me) ... or they believe they can manage temperatures without, and are unlikely to change!

it would depend entirely on the set-up being provided and other factors like how much time they spend at home etc.

Who's at home and awake 24 hours a day, 7 days a week and able to just sit next to their reptile enclosures with a thermometer in one hand and the plug for the heating equipment in the other?

[Onissarle]

And who said I was suggesting it to beginners? From my understanding (which is somewhat lessened after reading this thread) I was speaking to supposed experienced keepers.

*Sigh* Well the title of the thread really implies it was originally aimed at inexperienced keepers. "Do I really need a thermostat?" isn't the sort of question an experienced keeper would be asking because if they're experienced, they already know the answer. You're posting on a public internet forum where the majority of users have very little experience, whether that be due to age (as the majority of users are in their teens or early twenties) or because they've only recently joined the hobby.

Think of it this way... someone starts a thread intending to show to people the potential danger an unregulated heatmat can pose to a reptile, with photos and explanations of testing they've done. Then you come on and say that mats can't possibly get that hot and that thermostats are not required to regulate heat sources because they will magically maintain a constant and unchanging temperature at exactly or slightly below the level that particular animal needs it to be at.

Someone who went to the sticky because they don't really know much about stats and wanted to know more might look at your post and think "Hey, this guy says stats are a waste of money because the mat can't get hot enough to hurt my snake" and spend their money on something else. That sort of thinking killed a Dione ratsnake last week. How would you feel if a dozen people read your posts, decided they didn't need a stat, then two of them lost snakes because of it? Every time you set up an enclosure without proper thermal control, you roll the dice. Eventually someone will roll snake eyes.

Experienced keepers who have seen what heatmats and other heating equipment can do if unregulated will just ignore your advice. As you can see the vast majority of people here strongly disagree with you. Personally, I'm always looking for ways to improve my husbandry and tweaking my methods after talking to other keepers, especially those with more experience in particular species and such. I listen, consider, and if it makes sense I'll look into it and give it a try. Your methods don't make any sense whatsoever because it would placing my animals at greater risk of injury than they are currently in. Hence, all seventy-something animals of twenty two species that I own will remain in thermostat controlled enclosures.

Someone asked me earlier what I would say if a beginner in a shop came up to me asking for a snake and full setup. If they seemed completely oblivious I doubt I would trust them to maintain temperatures without a stat, but it would depend entirely on the set-up being provided and other factors like how much time they spend at home etc.

Everything in that statement is nonsense, as several other people have already pointed out. There is no way to ensure a steady optimum temperature of heating equipment without using some sort of stat. You're just lucky if the temperature is near enough to what it should be that it doesn't seriously harm the snake in one way or another.

My favourite shop will not sell a starter kit without a stat. They would rather turn away customers who aren't willing to look after the animals properly than have the death of the animals on their conscience. Another local shop sells starter kits without stats so they can say they have the cheapest starter kits. That's where the unfortunate hatchling Dione came from and look what happened to that.