Do i REALLY need a thermostat?

[BeckyL]

Originally Posted by kerryrep22

after feeling the heat mats when they have been plugged in for a few hours to see how warm they feel just on their own out of the tank, and they feel barely even hot to the touch, i find it hard to believe that then through layers of wood and plastic and substrate and whatever, temps anything like 150 oF would be reached, esp from a small heat mat, heating a tiny proportion of the tank! and do thermostats not regulate the temp of the viv, not the mat itself anyway?

Your heat mats should not feel especially warm to your hand, because you are a warm-blooded creature. If I put my hand on my boa's heat mat, it's difficult even to tell if it's on - yet the digital thermometer gives a reading on the mat of 83F. If your mats feel 'barely hot' to you, I'm willing to bet they are FAR too hot for your snakes.

Do you measure your temps with a digital thermometer? If not, would you consider doing so?

And thermostats regulate the device to which are they connected

Originally Posted by kerryrep22

no thats a fair point, i take that on board, and i do think a stat is a good idea, i just feel that the way some people on here are making us out to be such terrible people, and im sure alot of people that are members of the forum that read this dnt have a stat and their snakes are fine and healthy, and not brain-damaged, because mine certainly arent burnt or brain-damaged or stressed or unhappy, but they r just too scared to write on here because everyone will slate them. so i just want to put the other side of the debate across, and say that personally my snakes seem perfectly fine without a stat, though everyone is entitled to their own opinions and experiences, its not rite to condemn others for their choices wen their snakes seem absolutely fine.

I for one am not condemning anyone. The reason it troubles me is because I have seen first hand - and on more than one occasion - the temperature an unregulated heat source can achieve.

When I was very new to snakes, I kept my baby ratsnake on a heat mat with no thermostat. I was using stick-on thermometers, which gave a reading of about 82F on the warm side. All good then! When I had a bit more cash, I invested in a digital thermometer and took a reading. The temperature was close to 100F.

So I did use an uncontrolled heater for a good few weeks. No, my snake didn't die. No, he isn't brain damaged. But I WAS extremely lucky nothing happened, and I don't mind admitting it.

All I would like to do here is pass on the experience of my mistakes to others. If you choose not to use a thermostat, that is your choice, so long as you are fully aware of all the sides to your decision.

[kerryrep22]

this thread is just silly now, and my last comment was a bit mean but im fed up with certain people on here who are just being nasty, and i dnt know if mods read this but i dnt fink people on here should be allowed to bully others and claim they r breaking the law and silly things like that, what should be an interesting debate on here is just people slaggin each other and this thread should be closed because it is pointless!

[BeckyL]

I don't think the thread should be closed. I wish I'd been able to read this thread when I first started out with snakes.

[kerryrep22]

thank you becky, i appreciate your experience and i will bear that in mind, and thank you for putting it in an adult way! you dnt have to slag people off to teach and educate them!

[Ssthisto]

Originally Posted by kerryrep22

not to be rude but maybe you should just stop throwing ur toys ouf of the pram like a baby, cos some of the stuff ur saying is just stupid and unnecessary and nasty!

Kerry, please explain to me what exactly I have said is nasty to anyone here, as I do not believe I have been offensive to anyone. If I have, I would very much like to know what I have said to offend you specifically so that I can avoid doing it in the future. If you prefer you can PM me; I will always hear out advice and constructive criticism when it is provided.

im sure you think you are trying to help us naieve reptile owners that are all burning our snakes obviously, but as for ur comment about the animal welfare act that is just rubbish and you know it,

I was actually asking a question - whether an AWA inspector might consider that a problem or not. I was not accusing anyone of ACTUALLY failing in their duty of care - but I was asking if there was a chance an AWA inspector might say it was.

and i take great offence at what ur saying! your comments arent even helpful or constructive criticism, they r bordering on bullying almost and maybe you have an opinion which is fine but there r nicer ways of putting it, without having a go at everyone like u r!

I'm sorry you see it that way, Kerry. I did not think I had been bullying anyone and indeed I rather resented being accused of "faking evidence" with regards to my photographs of a heat mat clearly exceeding safe temperatures. Why exactly was that OK when my statements are not?

I thought I was asking pertinent questions like "Does the majority of user experience show that heat mats exceed safe temperatures" and I had also thought I was offering to help Morgoth (if he/she is near enough that I can travel there) to SHOW that his/her equipment does not exceed safe temperatures and indeed how he/she manages this so that others can learn from it. I certainly can see how the unregulated bulb (of an appropriate wattage and correctly guarded so the reptile has no access to it) in a very large enclosure with appropriate ventilation MIGHT work, although as I have quite a lot of thermostats in the house I do not feel the need to try it myself at this time.

Maybe it will help if I explain why I feel thermostats are a necessity.

I have an animal that a vet brain damaged by putting him on an unregulated heat source while recovering from surgery. Chumley used to be beautifully tame, friendly, and easy to handle. We could get him out for kids to stroke, and we even took him to a school. Then he had a bite from a cagemate (they no longer share an enclosure and we had been trying to breed them at the time) that meant he needed to be left at the vet's surgery for a day, and we explained that he is a temperate species that needs quite low temperatures for a reptile.

When I went to pick Chum up from the vet, I was shocked at how hot he felt - hairless pinky-mouse warm. That's between 98 and 100 degrees - and is fifteen to twenty degrees hotter than he should have been at his warmest. He seemed very groggy and disoriented; I put that down to the anaesthetic they'd used.

After we got him home he started performing a lot of very peculiar behaviours. Waving his head around in an uncoordinated way. Repetitive nose-rubbing. Attacking the cage walls - whether we were in the room or not. And he got VERY aggressive - charging us, biting, thrashing when handled. The surgery was two years ago. He is no longer easy to handle and manage. You open his cage and he aims his open mouth for you. I hate to say it because it sounds unfair, but I almost wish he hadn't survived the surgery, because he's not the same animal we took to the vet any more. At least then I could have gone back to the vet and told him that he ignored our instructions on the care of the animal, that we had been told they had appropriate and correct facilities to care for him while he was with them and that he died as a result of their mismanagement.

There's nothing anyone can do to give us Chumley back, and if I'm so adamant that thermostats are not an optional bit of kit, it's because I don't really want to hear about another reptile that's been permanently damaged like our boy.... or dead like the little Dione's ratsnake we heard about last weekend.

[Morgoth]

Originally Posted by Ssthisto

It can't get any worse UNLESS:

The room temperature rises
The snake knocks its water bowl over into it or pees in it
The snake gets under the mat or gets stuck between mat and substrate

They are the only things that can go wrong and each is easily prevented.

Room temperature fluctuations, in an average house, are very minimal. In fact a snake 'in the wild' would receive greater fluctuations if you take into account the wind-chill factor - a mild breeze can significantly reduce the temperature short-term. Snakes haven't survived since the late Mesozoic era to be killed by fluctuations of 2 or 3 degrees.

As for the snake knocking over its bowl - Some bowls are shaped so they can't really be knocked over - unless the snake gets under them. But if your refering to heavier snakes then put a rock in the bowl.

As I say, the temperature I recorded from a 86.5f heatmat wasn't with substrate on top - only taped down newspaper which the snakes can't get under. If you have smaller snakes than Kerry's tiled method is better.

[kerryrep22]

im sorry i said that, and after reading that story of course i completely get why you feel so strongly about stats, and i would never want that to happen to my reps of course cos i love them all so much! id have to, they take all my money, i misunderstood what you were saying about the legal issue, so i apologise for that. i just feel as a reptile owner of 18 reps now, wow, i resent people telling me that i am in some way harming my animals wen i spend all my time and money trying to give them the best life i can, and i just felt some of the comments others were making like people like me shouldnt be allowed snakes and that we are stupid and neglectful for not having a stat were unfair and kinda not that helpful. and on a personal point i did say that i believed ur figures and i would never call u a liar, nor anyone i dnt even know, sorry for any offence caused, i just want a fair debating ground for everyone, where people arent afraid to write stuff they feel, even if it goes against the tide, and i wanted to stand up for people who are scared to say stuff. and i do fink stats are good anyway! lol

[Skyespirit86]

I'd say you can probably get away with not using a stat on some heat mats but it varies. It depends on their individual function.

The mat in my original set up which didn't start with a thermostat never seemed to go higher than the ideal temp. However as time has gone on I have realised this is just lucky. Most exceed the ideal temp, even if just by a bit. And I do think the habistat mats i originally used are a bit weaker than the lucky reptile ones I now use too. With them, if they aren't on a stat they would be way over 100F and that is not safe at all. It also seemed to be affected the amount of floor space they were placed within. In a large viv the same mat made a lower temp than in a smaller one. The wattage didn't seem to make any difference. I have had tiny 7 watt ones make the same temp as a large 100w one. If heat builds up in the room when central heating is on temps will rise even more. I have observed it when putting a new mat in one of my vivs and testing it without a stat. There was a layer of substrate above it, plus a cardboard box hide- and the thermometer inside the hide was still registering too highm about 36C. I tried adding more substrate and stuff-nope. The heat still got through. So 'mechanical' alterations or whatever, that someone mentioned don't necessarily work, except on certain weaker mats...You are convinced now, and it is quite possible that the current set ups you have are fairly stable the way they are but situations can change and future experience could leave you on the other side of the arguement.

I have also read about the 'thermal blocking' that occurs when a heavy bodied snake eg a python/boa like a royal sits on top of a heatmat which is too hot. Their thick body traps the heat and causes burns so I might be more worried with a royal than a corn perhaps. There is evidence for this- I have seen a couple of posts on RFUK with pics. eg this one:
http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/snake...ppen-when.html

So yes, some snakes will just sit there and get burnt. I don't think they necessarily always feel burning until it's too late.

[Morgoth]

Originally Posted by Skyespirit86

I'd say you can probably get away with not using a stat on some heat mats but it varies. It depends on their individual function.

The mat in my original set up which didn't start with a thermostat never seemed to go higher than the ideal temp. However as time has gone on I have realised this is just lucky. Most exceed the ideal temp, even if just by a bit. And I do think the habistat mats i originally used are a bit weaker than the lucky reptile ones I now use too. With them, if they aren't on a stat they would be way over 100F and that is not safe at all. It also seemed to be affected the amount of floor space they were placed within. In a large viv the same mat made a lower temp than in a smaller one. The wattage didn't seem to make any difference. I have had tiny 7 watt ones make the same temp as a large 100w one. If heat builds up in the room when central heating is on temps will rise even more. I have observed it when putting a new mat in one of my vivs and testing it without a stat. There was a layer of substrate above it, plus a cardboard box hide- and the thermometer inside the hide was still registering too highm about 36C. I tried adding more substrate and stuff-nope. The heat still got through. So 'mechanical' alterations or whatever, that someone mentioned don't necessarily work, except on certain weaker mats...You are convinced now, and it is quite possible that the current set ups you have are fairly stable the way they are but situations can change and future experience could leave you on the other side of the arguement.

I have also read about the 'thermal blocking' that occurs when a heavy bodied snake eg a python/boa like a royal sits on top of a heatmat which is too hot. Their thick body traps the heat and causes burns so I might be more worried with a royal than a corn perhaps. There is evidence for this- I have seen a couple of posts on RFUK with pics. eg this one:
http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/snake...ppen-when.html

So yes, some snakes will just sit there and get burnt. I don't think they necessarily always feel burning until it's too late.

This argument seems to be switching back and fore between burns being the point of controversy to overall ambient temperatures. Which is it?

I have admitted that heavy snakes may indeed overtime create hot pockets within a heatmat, creating areas of much higher heat than normal. I have also admitted that in many circumstances, when external temperature plays a large role in the internal viv temps, a stat would be highly useful. And finally I have admitted that stats are very useful overall. They take a fair bit of trial and error out of the equation. But if your experienced in doing it manually and you have a fairly stable room temperature (my garage for instance is fairly stable) then they are not essential for every application.

Some people seem to be trying to convince me that stats are useful - I know they are, never said they weren't.

[Morgoth]

Originally Posted by Ssthisto

Maybe it will help if I explain why I feel thermostats are a necessity.

I have an animal that a vet brain damaged by putting him on an unregulated heat source while recovering from surgery. Chumley used to be beautifully tame, friendly, and easy to handle. We could get him out for kids to stroke, and we even took him to a school. Then he had a bite from a cagemate (they no longer share an enclosure and we had been trying to breed them at the time) that meant he needed to be left at the vet's surgery for a day, and we explained that he is a temperate species that needs quite low temperatures for a reptile.

When I went to pick Chum up from the vet, I was shocked at how hot he felt - hairless pinky-mouse warm. That's between 98 and 100 degrees - and is fifteen to twenty degrees hotter than he should have been at his warmest. He seemed very groggy and disoriented; I put that down to the anaesthetic they'd used.

After we got him home he started performing a lot of very peculiar behaviours. Waving his head around in an uncoordinated way. Repetitive nose-rubbing. Attacking the cage walls - whether we were in the room or not. And he got VERY aggressive - charging us, biting, thrashing when handled. The surgery was two years ago. He is no longer easy to handle and manage. You open his cage and he aims his open mouth for you. I hate to say it because it sounds unfair, but I almost wish he hadn't survived the surgery, because he's not the same animal we took to the vet any more. At least then I could have gone back to the vet and told him that he ignored our instructions on the care of the animal, that we had been told they had appropriate and correct facilities to care for him while he was with them and that he died as a result of their mismanagement.

There's nothing anyone can do to give us Chumley back, and if I'm so adamant that thermostats are not an optional bit of kit, it's because I don't really want to hear about another reptile that's been permanently damaged like our boy.... or dead like the little Dione's ratsnake we heard about last weekend.

That is by no means the 'norm'. And you admit yourself that it was a temperate species. If I had a species requiring only 70-80f I wouldn't even have a heatmat - a 40watt bulb would suffice for a basking spot. At night the temps don't drop below 72f-ish in my garage so it wouldn't need supplementary heating. No reptile requiring the normal temperatures - 85-95f hotspot for instance, would have become braindead from 95f direct heat - unless it couldn't get access to a cooler area (was this the case with the example you've given above?) and was on there permanently.