Do i REALLY need a thermostat?

[guypettigrew]

Originally Posted by Ssthisto

Morgoth, I noticed your list of animals-you've-kept, and I see a sort of theme going. The majority of animals you list require moderately high to VERY high temperatures for reptiles; you don't list any really temperate species other than the Taiwanese beauty (and depending on the subspecies, possibly the king - the skinks again depending on species since that's sort of like saying "I keep hooved mammals"). Most of the species you list specifically are also fairly hardy and able to cope with temperature fluctuations well. It might well be that your methods work so well with your animals simply because you've got animals that are bloody hard to kill with temperature fluctuations as long as the temperature does not exceed a certain critical point.

How exactly did you keep the Taiwanese beauty, out of curiosity?

Hi Ssthisto.

My guess is this is key to Morgoth's argument.

The animals he has listed are fairly hardy and moderately temperature tolerant.

A few degrees away from optimal in either direction won't seriously compromise their husbandry.

The more delicate snakes, which have evoved into very specific ecological niches, need more accurately controlled environments.

Specifically here I'm thinking of my ETBs, GTPs, and Annulated tree boas (Corallus annulatus).

These are temperature sensitive species which don't "shuttle" in the way corns, kings and most lizards do.

Without accurate thermoststic control, coupled with frequent monitoring, they would not do at all well.

Guy

[kerryrep22]

that is a fair point about the vinyl, but yes my mine has been set-up for a long time and my pythons do not appear to be poisoned, but thank you for the advice, and with the temp point i said they were roughly those temps and i dnt really think its worth quibbling over a degree or two cos that is what we are talking about here tbh, and im sure in the wild the temp isnt exactly always 32-33 oC is it, and just to be clear i do appreciate that royals and corns need a different set-up because there are different snakes from different parts of the world.

[Onissarle]

i checked the surface of my royals floor, and it was most definitely around 30 oC

Royals require basking temperatures between 90-95f, that's around 34 celcius, for optimum conditions. If the ground temperature in the warmest part of their viv/basking area is only 30 celcius, you're keeping them signifcantly too cool and need to think about a more effective way of heating them. I'd suggest a guarded ceramic on a pulse stat.

but on a final point i do agree with morgoth that the fact that snakes were successfully kept in the past without stats

Where do you think the myth that reptiles only live a year in captivity comes from? How about the one that royals normally only live 3-4 years (recently told to someone on this forum by a pet shop)? How about the classic "It won't grow bigger than its tank"? The lack of UV, calcium supplements and proper feeding practices meant many animals (including many, many green iguanas) suffered stunted growth and MBD before dying at a relatively young age, hence why they never out-grew their enclosures.

Now we have UV lighting, dietary supplements and better means of climate control. By using them we improve the conditions for our animals and make their lives longer and healthier. I stand to gain nothing from using and advocating thermostats, (it actually costs me an awful lot of money) except for knowing that my animals are safe and that I'll enjoy their company for longer because they're getting the best living conditions I can provide.

Most of the 'facts and figures' used by anti groups are very out of date statistics from the old days (when they aren't just made up).

and the heat mat is under plastic vinyl floor tiles

Did you read my explanation about using vinyl inside vivs? If not, please go back and read it, then do your own research to confirm it. If you keep setting up vivs that way, sooner or later you may end up poisoning something.

If you absolutely must use vinyl, heat it up in a well ventilated area for several weeks or more before putting it into a viv. That will release the majority of the toxic fumes and reduce the risk to your animals.

*sigh*

Here's a summation of some of the things you've said about stats so far:

i think its great to have a stat if you do and they work
and i do fink stats are good anyway!
yes we prob should use them and they are a great step forward

Stats work, they're a good idea, you should probably use them and they're a great step forward for husbandry methods. Is that fair paraphrasing?

You seem to be readily accepting that stats are a good idea and do represent a better quality of care for captive reptiles. Please correct me if I'm wrong but that's the context your statements seem to have been said in.

Keeping that in mind as our context...

i spend all my time and money trying to give them the best life i can

and

i do not see the point of spending my money on one

are mutually exclusive statements. That means they contradict each other so both of them can't be true. If you accept stats are a good thing and are an improvement in the standard of care we can provide to captive reptiles, that makes the statement of "i do not see the point" intrinsically false if you are trying to provide your animals with "the best life i can".

You have seen stats, accepted they serve a useful function and are an improvement in care standards but then have made the active and informed decision to withold that improvement in care from your animals. I'm finding it hard to understand how you define that as "trying to give them the best life i can" and makes the phrase "spending my money" stand out a lot more.

[kerryrep22]

i know that im not doing everything textbook here, and i know i havent kept reptiles for as long as some of you guys on here, and i do take on board all your advice as more experienced keepers, but i just know that what i do works for my snakes, they are happy and healthy and eating and growing and shedding and doing all the things they are meant to do and are great, and i think when it comes to the temps and things like that i fink that tiny fluctations of a degree or two here and there really arent the end of the world, in comparison to things like having the right type of UV and giving the right supplements and the right foods and stuff like that, and really arent a big deal to the snakes as long as it is still within the healthy range of different temps that naturally they would have in the wild, i dnt fink reptile keeping is about sitting there with a thermometer all the time making sure you have it perfect to .1 of a degree of what the textbook says, and i think if you know your snakes then you know what works for them and if they are happy. but obviously i do think that the more temperate and sensitive reptile species do of course need very exact temps and conditions and so forth.

[sparkle]

Originally Posted by kerryrep22

i know that im not doing everything textbook here, and i know i havent kept reptiles for as long as some of you guys on here, and i do take on board all your advice as more experienced keepers, but i just know that what i do works for my snakes, they are happy and healthy and eating and growing and shedding and doing all the things they are meant to do and are great, and i think when it comes to the temps and things like that i fink that tiny fluctations of a degree or two here and there really arent the end of the world, in comparison to things like having the right type of UV and giving the right supplements and the right foods and stuff like that, and really arent a big deal to the snakes as long as it is still within the healthy range of different temps that naturally they would have in the wild, i dnt fink reptile keeping is about sitting there with a thermometer all the time making sure you have it perfect to .1 of a degree of what the textbook says, and i think if you know your snakes then you know what works for them and if they are happy. but obviously i do think that the more temperate and sensitive reptile species do of course need very exact temps and conditions and so forth.

heat mats can and have been proven in tests to reach 120 degrees with no heat mat.. and even WITH a heat mat stat vary around 8 degrees.. thats with a simple on/off stat a pulse stat is the only one that will keep a mat exact within one to 2 degrees..
not all heat mats will always stay same either.. some one day can give off really low heat the next they overheat and burn an animal to death..
im not sure if u have ever seen a lizard or snake with heat mat burns but they are awful..

please please for the sake of 15 to 20 pounds get a mat stat... as ive said so so many times before its a bit like going i9n a car with no seatbelt... its never too late till youre dead..
then theres no wishing you had done it differently.. your animal is in your care.. it doesnt have a say... please do everyhting you can for it.. not just basics xxxx
good luck with your animals


as for the vinyl.. we place ours over a radiator and leave it.. for at least 7 to 14 days.. before using it in the tanks.. so using vinyl can be done but again to further minimize risk heating it for a while to release fumes is an option..one thats failry easy to achieve
we have so many options not using them because we think it will be ok isnt really preferable and why kick yourself later for not doing everyhting we can now.. and perhaps even going as far as losing an animal..
thats pointless

[Onissarle]

Originally Posted by kerryrep22

and with the temp point i said they were roughly those temps and i dnt really think its worth quibbling over a degree or two cos that is what we are talking about here tbh, and im sure in the wild the temp isnt exactly always 32-33 oC is it,

Actually, yes it is worth quibbling over 6-8 degrees fahrenheit or 3-4 degrees celcius. That's a pretty big difference if that's what their temperature is consistently at (as you claim, since you don't need a stat to keep it steady, or are you now admitting that the temperature does fluctuate upwards?). In the wild, they could go and find a warmer basking area if they wanted to but in your enclosure, they can never get that warm, no matter how much they might want to.

and just to be clear i do appreciate that royals and corns need a different set-up because there are different snakes from different parts of the world.

So why are you happy keeping them at roughly the same temperatures when you know one needs a significantly higher basking area?

What you've actually just said here is that you just heat your snakes to whatever the level the heater is outputting, you know your temps are wrong and that you don't care that they are significantly below the recommended basking temperatures for that species.

That has nothing to do with using a stat to stop temps getting too high. That is wilful negligence if you know something is wrong and refuse to correct it - and certainly doesn't constitute "trying to give them the best life i can".

[kerryrep22]

ok i am clearly the only person here on the forum that doesnt have a stat, maybe apart from morgoth, he he, even though i know that is so not true but everyone else is too scared to say they dnt have a stat, and i have said so many times that i may even get a stat anyway, but i really feel that what i wrote above is so true in many ways, and i cant believe that anybody apart from me doesnt at least feel that there is at least some truth in what i said about knowing your animals and knowing what works for them, and every case being individual! especially those who have been keeping reptiles forever. but if nobody else agrees with me than that is fine, and i do fink your opinions are very valid.

[Morgoth]

/signing out of this thread.

Won't matter what argument is presented, you'll always refuse to admit that stats aren't 100% essential and look for whatever loophole - however irrelevant - to get out of admitting it.

One minute your saying "Beginners are the key target of this thread so you shouldn't be saying these things to them"

And next your saying "I notice all the species you have kept are beginner species Morgoth. What about the ones for experienced keepers requiring more exact conditions..."

Contradicting yourself entirely.

I know for a fact that thermostats aren't essential simply because:

They used to be kept safely without them before they were widely available (and please don't bring up some totally irrelevent myth that has nothing to do with thermostats).

I have kept them for 10 years without them perfectly fine.

Another member who posted said they have kept them fine for 15 years without them.

There are loads of others on here who do the same but won't speak out because of the loud-mouthed minority who think they've seen it all.

This argument is one big

Carry on with your corrupt preaching that you can't have a healthy thriving reptile without a thermostat, it just makes you look a bit daft to those of us of a more enlightened disposition.

[sparkle]

Originally Posted by Morgoth

/signing out of this thread.

Won't matter what argument is presented, you'll always refuse to admit that stats aren't 100% essential and look for whatever loophole - however irrelevant - to get out of admitting it.




I have kept them for 10 years without them perfectly fine.
.

they are not essential to keeping a reptile.. neither is wearing a seatbelt to driving they are essential for a SAFER keeping... or SAFER driving

the arguement here is not what is essential it is what is essentially safe .. what is the BEST we can do.. not the least

some keepers will do ALL they can.. some will not..

I fall into the first category .. you dont

simple really

[kerryrep22]

ok i am obviously a terrible reptile owner getting it all wrong in everybodys eyes and i shouldnt be allowed my snakes cos i am clearly neglecting them badly, even though by some remarkable luck they all appear to be great and healthy and lovely, and all appear to have no problems digesting their food every week regardless of the fact that they are all being kept too cold or too hot! but i am intrigued to know if anyone out there is brave enuf to say that they also dnt have a stat and their snakes are fine. but i dnt suppose there is but thats fine.