Do i REALLY need a thermostat?

[cobradaz1980]

Hey there Grond,

thanks for getting back to us so quick, the guy who runs a local snake rescue store told me this when he was asking me about my viv. I too said i've never heard of it being a law as such but he claims it came into effect last year.

[Grond]

Originally Posted by cobradaz1980

Hey there Grond,

thanks for getting back to us so quick, the guy who runs a local snake rescue store told me this when he was asking me about my viv. I too said i've never heard of it being a law as such but he claims it came into effect last year.

I'm amazed it hasn't been much discussed on here if it is! Maybe it's just a rule for shops/businesses.

Although I think you can get away with lights without stats in some circumstances(such as an open tortoise table), I wouldn't personally use a heat source in a viv or a heatmat, without some form of thermostat for the safety reasons mentioned!

It's obviously worked well for you though looking at your royal!

[ReverendMachine]

Sorry I signed up for this Forum and then realized its for the UK, im from the states lol. Just going to throw this out there.

Ok Mats on there own arnt dangerous. People who dont understand there reptile are.

Mats can be used without a stat, its just logical its been done for years. But its only when knowing a given set of variables.

All of which depend on your reptile individualy.

I have 2 snakes, a Western Coachwhip and a Mohjave(didnt spell correctly) Shovel Nose. The Coachwhip, I have set up in a 20 gallon with a 10-20 Mat Heater. I have about 2 inches of ultra fine sand, now My coach whip doesnt not burrow in the 3 months Ive had it. It perfers to stay under its Log. So for him i run a mat with no stat, but i have 2 digital thermometers cold/hot side. The temp at the 1 1/2 inch depth is 87 F Degrees ruffly about 30-31 C. For him its perfect he has thrived well. If I set the temp to 87F at the glass then the ari temp is only 76 and the surface of the substraight is 80-82 This just doesnt work for him. When I did that he began to swirl directly over the mat. Slowly moving sand away until he got lower this i didnt like as it would cause him to get to close to the mat. I don't not need a stat simply because he doesnt not come in contact with the glass at the bottom of the viv. I run begun to use a stat cause I worry about my mat going on the fritz and over heating. But thats cause im paraniod.

Now for the shovel nose, a 10 gallon tank but I have a diff setup cause it does borrow, its spends more then 90% of its time actually swiming throught the sand. So it has about 6 inches of substraight. Running Infared dome lamps on a stat But only as a percaution. They read a about 95 Degrees. Surface only. And only for 3-4 hrous then step down the wattage on the bulb to mimic the progession of the day using timers to a simple night lamp. So for him the Mat uncontroled would be dangerous. I am also aware that humans have gone about things backwards with the under tank heaters. The Shovel nose in the wild swims closer to the surface in order to get warm. The under tank heater is quite the oposite, but thats why I do not use it for him.

Can it be done. Yes is it safe, depends o the habits of your snake. If your snake spends its time abover the substraight then horray for you. It wont be as tricky, but some substraights are more dangrouse then others. Aspen grass or whatever provides very little protection from an under tank heater. Neither do chips or newspaper(Don't like that at all)

So the varaibles are as follows.

Your reptiles Species.
Its Substraight.
Its behavoir unique to itself.
Your Dedication. (lets face it... These are necessary cause most people do not take or simply do not have the time to check the temp of there reptile every 10-30 min)

So to state that to not use one is stupid or dump or just not ethical is as redundant as saying that we should stop driving cause WE WILL HAVE a car accident. However if your drive cautiously, and very aware of the dangers of driving they are not longer as dangerous. -Rev

[Ssthisto]

Originally Posted by ReverendMachine

Ok Mats on there own arnt dangerous. People who dont understand there reptile are.

I would have to disagree with that based on my own experiences with heat mats. A mat used on its own with no control *can* be dangerous.

These are necessary cause most people do not take or simply do not have the time to check the temp of there reptile every 10-30 min)

No kidding. Most people have to sleep and go to work or school... and the number of people who seem to think their hand is a thermometer is staggering.

I check temperatures twice a day - when I get up in the morning before work, and when I get home from work. Thermostats are a necessity on every piece of equipment I have.

[ReverendMachine]

Originally Posted by Ssthisto

I would have to disagree with that based on my own experiences with heat mats. A mat used on its own with no control *can* be dangerous.

I dont disagree wih you there. They *can* be dangerous. But thats not to say they are completly just cause you dont use a stat. In some cases a stat is absolutly required no questions ask it is required. But your fail to see that it is not always required.

Originally Posted by Ssthisto

No kidding. Most people have to sleep and go to work or school... and the number of people who seem to think their hand is a thermometer is staggering.

Like I stated. Thankyou for reitterating my point.

Originally Posted by Ssthisto

I check temperatures twice a day - when I get up in the morning before work, and when I get home from work. Thermostats are a necessity on every piece of equipment I have.

What equipment do you have? How does your reptile behave? Does it engage in behavoirs that will likley cause it to become to close to the mat?

Did you really read my post? What are your personal experiances? I'm not writing all of this because I want to fight that is not what im doing. Its just your "logic" isn't sound. Its flaw is that it fails to accept resonsiblity on the owner of the reptile completly. It sounds like logic but its not. So what was your personal experiance. I don't mean to be snide or downputting. Just logical. -Rev

[alinoee]

Originally Posted by Grond

Although I think you can get away with lights without stats in some circumstances(such as an open tortoise table), I wouldn't personally use a heat source in a viv or a heatmat, without some form of thermostat for the safety reasons mentioned!
It's obviously worked well for you though looking at your royal!

i cant believe this conversation is still going on. i had bulb on habistat. thankfully the viv was big enough to let my python move far far away from heat source controlled by habistat. I'm glad she is still with me.

[Ssthisto]

Originally Posted by ReverendMachine

What equipment do you have? How does your reptile behave? Does it engage in behavoirs that will likley cause it to become to close to the mat?

I have quite a lot of equipment, ranging from bulbs to ceramics to heat mats. I have six thermostats in just the room I'm sitting in (which is NOT one of our two reptile rooms or the room that we might as well call a third rep room, although we persist in calling it our dining room).

My reptiles - all eighty-some of them - do indeed engage in behaviours, like burrowing or climbing - that could bring them close to the heating equipment in their respective enclosures. I plan for the worst and hope for the best, therefore I create my enclosures knowing that the animals are prevented from coming to harm on their heating equipment to the best of my ability (not my budget). Guards, thermostats, and temperature monitoring.

Did you really read my post?

Yes. Incidentally, I don't know about the brand of mats you use, but all of the heat mats I have ever owned state that they must not be covered with more than 1 to 1.5 centimetres of substrate, as more than this increases the risk of thermal blocking (even if they are on a thermostat). Thermal blocking is what is generally responsible for heat mat *burns*.

You mention your coachwhip hasn't burrowed in the three months you have had it. That's nine months of the year (including winter) that you haven't observed it yet, and just a tiny fraction of its potential lifespan. Perhaps he would burrow under certain circumstances or given a substrate that is easier to burrow into. I don't keep coachwhips, so I don't know how they behave in the long run.

Your Mojave shovelnose sounds, behaviourally, like a sand boa, which I do keep. And although they are perfectly capable of learning that the heat comes from the bottom, I commend you for replicating the conditions they understand in the wild.

What are your personal experiances?

Reptile Forums UK - Ssthisto's Album: Think you don't need a thermostat?

That's one personal experience right there.

Scroll up to the first post on this thread. Check out the temperatures recorded. That's another experience - not mine, but a valid one.

In both cases we have set up the enclosures the way that a shop would recommend them, with the exception of the thermostat.

Its flaw is that it fails to accept resonsiblity on the owner of the reptile completly.

Of course I accept responsibility. I have the *responsibility* to ensure that my reptiles cannot come to harm as a result of my choice to keep them.

If that means having a high-end infrared thermometer to check temperatures at the basking spot - and even the reptile's own temperature - then that's my responsibility.

If that means putting a guard over a bulb so a snake can't curl up around it, instead of watching them 24-7-365 (which is an unrealistic expectation), that's my responsibility.

If that means ensuring a heat mat is OUTSIDE an enclosure and is not thermally blocked by substrate then that's my responsibility.

If that means ensuring that all heating equipment is controlled by an appropriate thermostat to maintain the temperature required, then that's my responsibility too.

Anyone who cannot devote 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 52 weeks a year to sitting next to their cages checking temperatures does indeed NEED equipment that will sit there for them.

[metalgod]

A noobie question here as I'm thinking about getting a snake soon and was just perusing this forum...
Instead of getting an expensive thermostat to regulate the temp limit, can't you just use a lamp that doesn't reach 150F?
The infra red lamp I use for my scorpion maxes out at around 90F, couldn't I use one of those instead?

[Ssthisto]

That lamp might max out around 90F when your room temperature is, say, 65F.

What happens in summer if your house temperature rises? All it takes is a ten-degree rise in room temperature to make that lamp max out at 110F. Many snakes will suffer heat-stress issues when exposed to temperatures that high for any length of time.

It also depends on where you're measuring that temperature - right under the lamp where your animal is, or on the back wall of the enclosure where your animal isn't?

If a thermostat is too expensive, I have to admit my feeling is that a *snake* is too expensive. A bulb guard that isn't cheap, shoddy and the sort of thing that a snake can get into is also pretty expensive; would you leave the bulb unguarded or guarded with an inappropriate guard so the snake can curl around it when it's switched off - and possibly get burned when it's switched on? I lost a snake that way - he got into a bulb guard overnight, and then panicked when the bulb went on in the morning, got his head stuck and broke his neck. I'm just thankful that happened BEFORE the 40-watt bulb started to cook him.

[Carlie]

Originally Posted by metalgod

A noobie question here as I'm thinking about getting a snake soon and was just perusing this forum...
Instead of getting an expensive thermostat to regulate the temp limit, can't you just use a lamp that doesn't reach 150F?
The infra red lamp I use for my scorpion maxes out at around 90F, couldn't I use one of those instead?

Hello! Welcome to RFUK.

Meet "Mini Snake", my Southern Ringneck Snake. He lives on my computer desk and harasses me when I'm on my computer. He's so small he currently lives in a £2 sandwich tub from ASDA. This sandwich tub is heated with a 21watt heatmat, regulated with a HabiStat Pulse Proportional Thermostat, which includes a night temperature drop feature.

This little chap cost me £15 and he has that thermostat all to himself; see below. Excuse the fuzzy photo. Haven't opened the curtains yet, so it's dark in here.




All snakes, regardless of your budget, deserve to be kept safe when you're not around to keep an eye on their temperatures. You can pick up a basic on/off thermostat for as little as £18. Factor this in when budgeting for your new snakey.

On a separate note, I've just gotten two HabiStat 17 x 11 heat mats. Identical products. Anoyingly, one gets hotter than the other. No idea why. A massive pain in the bum when trying to run two matts off one stat, but just goes to show that these pieces of equipment are unpredictable sometimes and need to be regulated.