Do i REALLY need a thermostat?

[R0b_2oo8]

im glad this is a sticky here, as idve never foudn iout about thermostats otherwise

i just had a touch of the glass where the heat mat is, its all set up well, adn i can barley touch them for 2 seconds, the medium size exo terra and the small size exo terra desert heat wave mats, and after palcing the digi prob onot the glass iot shot to over 40 degress CELSUIS and nealry 36 Celsuis respectivly!!

needless to say i unplugged them and am now wanting a thermostat, and they arnt cheap for an 18 year old on 4.77/hr who has to pay rent etcetc

[Blackecho]

You can pick them up for <£20.

[alsner]

Having read and then re-read this entire thread a number of times there seems to be some confusion taking place as there is some very bad science being perpetuated here.

There are many factors that need to be taken into consideration with regards to the housing construction and size, other heat sources, susbtrate used and venting arrangements.

1. All heat scources heat their local environment including the air, this is a fundamental part of heat radiation and laws of nature within the universe we inhabit. As part of their design these mats will run hot in order to be effective whether side, back or base mounted. These heaters are just that, HEATERS, they are not snake warmers they are designed to heat the enclosure.

2. In order to heat their local environment all heat scources will always be hotter at scource and then the further away you get the cooler the effect of the initial heat scource, any thermal regulation that takes place can only be effective by the removal of power/heat.

This is what a thermostat does, it takes a temperature from the desired location and then cuts power as necessary to maintain an ambient temperature. E.g. In the morning when your heating comes on feel the temperature of your radiators and then check at various times of the day it will fluctuate but I bet in the morning they are at their hottest (scalding to the touch). If you were to have a thick substrate and the sensor on the mat itself then it would render the mat as almost useless as the mats reach the temp 78-88f (mat temp) it would be turned off but the ambient temp of housing would still be alot lower. Imagine if we were to control our houses temperatures by measuring it directly from the radiators then our houses would be freezing in winter.

Having the ability to thermally control the environmnet (inc humidity levels) is vital to maintain a healthy reptile but then so is having an environment big enough to allow them to thermally regulate themselves by moving around: perches, water bowls, hides. No animal will cook themselves intentionally by lying on a scorching heat mat for extended periods of time if they have somewhere else to go. If they are stupid enough not to move then you have witnessed Darwin's Theory of Evolution in action as this relies on the survival of the fittest both intellectually and physically.

A) If you have very little/thin substrate between the mat and base of viv etc and also a small enclosed area, then the heat will rocket up to alarming levels. Having a way of controlling the ambient heat is essential in order to stop the temperatures witnessed.

B) If you have a thick substrate and a large space then it will take time for the ambient temp to increase and the actual temp of the mat will still be at its max (as witnessed on first post). However the actual ambient temp may still be nowhere near too hot as it depends on the area it needs to heat and the materials the heat has to conduct through.

Once it hits the desired temp the power to mat will be cut however the mat and immediate area will still retain its heat. Slowly, as the heat disperses from the vivarium and the temp drops below the required level then the power will resume to mat until the environment reaches desired temp. If your reptile buries itself and stays there and subsequently dies then see Darwin's thoery of evolution and survival of the fittest.

To all that may still be confused go to Habistat: Thermostats & Heat Mats. The climate control Specialists or try this Heat transfer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I guess the point I am trying to make is, these mats will always hit temperatures that would scare you silly in normal everyday use (this is what they do) so please don't accuse all reptile owners that don't run a stat as lucky, lawbreakers, not fit to own or inconsiderate -- yadda yadda yadda!

Saying all of that though if in any doubt for £20-30 no brainer really.

alnser

[Blackecho]

Originally Posted by alsner

the point I am trying to make is, these mats will always hit temperatures that would scare you silly in normal everyday use (this is what they do) so please don't accuse all reptile owners that don't run a stat as lucky, lawbreakers, not fit to own or inconsiderate

Are you not contradicting yourself here?

You say they will get hot and then say its ok to not use a stat?

[alsner]

Originally Posted by Blackecho

Are you not contradicting yourself here?

You say they will get hot and then say its ok to not use a stat?

I suggest you re-read the entire post then come back to me on that one where did I say that?

I implied that it isn't always necesssary and wouldn't stop the temperatures (mat temps and surfaces they touch) on the first post from being reached also that you shouldn't vilify people that don't or haven't used them.

Mats are supposed to get hot this is what they do - stat or no stat. The stat controls the ambient temperature and not the mat temp unless you place the sensor on the mat itself.

[Blackecho]

Originally Posted by alsner

I suggest you re-read the entire post then come back to me on that one where did I say that?

er- the bits I highlighted?

[snickers]

> No animal will cook themselves intentionally by lying
> on a scorching heat mat for extended periods of time
> if they have somewhere else to go.

IMO Most of the rest of you post is as wrong as this.

[alsner]

Heat radiates out from any heat source this in turn effects the ambient temperature (I stated air in previous post, sorry) inside an enclosure, so any heat source that is part of a set up will effect the temp along with external ambient temperature conditions that the enclosure is place in (room temp up and down). This is why in order to maintain certain temperature levels easily and reliably (especially in small RUBs) you need a way of maintaining the required temp and not overheating or underheating the habitat and harming/killing your snake.

Taken from Habistat website

Habistat Heat Mats.
Heat Mats produce ultra long wavelength infra red heat. This wavelength is invisible to the human eye and tends to furnishings in the cage rather than the air. This action of heating is very similar to the sun and it has the ability to heat anything that it strikes but with the air temperature remaining much lower. Reptiles absorb this at in a manner very similar to basking in a natural enviroment. Heat mats do get warm but provide a very gentle warmth which the animal can sit under or on top of. Used under normal conditions the mats cannot burn the animal.
It should be noted that heat mats give a gentle background heat. If you are keeping animals that requires higher temperatures, then you may require additional supplemental heating. Many diurnal or day active species of lizard require basking spots of rather high localised heat. Additional heat sources should then be provided for these species. Heat mats are excellent primary heaters for most applications requiring night time heating, as they emit no visable light and are the most widely used heater for this purpose.
For many species of snake and for most invertebrate heating. Heat mats are excellent as the sole heat sources. If in doubt please seek expert advice with regard to the animal's specific requirements.

Habistat Heat Strips.
Heat Strips are manufactured in the same way as mats. They are made narrower and are generally used to heat small boxes and the cages used for housing juvenile snakes and some other species. The principles of use are the same as those for mats and the same precautions should be exercised. In small enclosures the heat build up can be very quick. The temperature should be adequately monitored and controlled with a HabiStat thermostat.

Habistat Mat Stat
The Mat stat is a simple, economic thermostat, designed to be used with heat mats to a maximum of 100 watts.
Although heat mats can be used without thermostats, the cage temperature can fluctuate with the ambient temperature. Too hot outside and there is the likelihood of the vivarium overheating. With minimal additional cost it can be assured that overheating will not occur in hot weather.
One of the best selling thermostats, alongside the Temperature thermostat.

Habistat Temp Thermostat
The Temperature Thermostat is an on/ off switching device, that can be used with a variety of heaters. It has an accurate dial calibrated in both Farenheit and Celcius. Ideal for controlling heat mats, and other low powered heaters up a maximum load of 300 watts. One of the best selling thermostats in Europe.

http://www.eurorep.net/habistat/mat.pdf a PDF of an example of a Habistat set up

Maybe all of you that know better and are really concerned should take out a class action lawsuit against ALL makers of such mats for mis-representing their products, promoting bad science and allegedly endangering all those reptiles out there.

Snickers - why the hell do you think you have a cool end and a warm end if not to allow for thermal self regulation? For a different view? Don't be so dozey..

[guypettigrew]

Originally Posted by snickers

> No animal will cook themselves intentionally by lying
> on a scorching heat mat for extended periods of time
> if they have somewhere else to go.

IMO Most of the rest of you post is as wrong as this.

Haven't there been cases of snakes sustaining burns from being wrapped round a heat source such as a light or ceramic bulb? I always thought that's why guards had to be used with htese types of heat sources.

Guy

[snickers]

> Snickers - why <> do you think you have a cool
> end and a warm end if not to allow for thermal self
> regulation? For a different view? Don't be so dozey..

...and yet despite all your (pseudo) science, snakes still get burned.