smuggling problems!!!

[brick]

hey i have been writing on a US forum aswell, and may have fired some people up, but fairly i think.
As an australian living in europe, i understand about the rules for snakes coming out of australia, essentially they cant. Some zoos can do it i think, but all aussie animals in europe and the UK in private collections are essentially descendants of animals that have either been smuggled in, or came out years ago, when the laws were more acceptable.
Recently alibno carpets have made there way to the canada (and as i believe, this is possible as canada doesnt have the Lacey Act?)
In collections these days there are, alibno and axanthic blackheads, alibno carpets etc etc. And i just wonder how they have made them to europe and the states, ie they have all come up in recent years, not lines descented from say the 70's. Now yes, it is possible, for someone to produce say an alibno, as a fluke, ie they manage to have het animals, that thru breeding have never been in contact with another het alibno. But it seems that there have been a few too many people winning this lottery lately. Im sure you got a better chance of winning euro millions, than having an albino carpet pop up in a clutch, but yes it COULD happen.
Someone on that forum commented, that they WOULD buy a smuggled snake, just not a stolen one, to me its the same thing.
Im just wondering what other peoples thoughts are on this. I have talked to a big time US breeder (not involved with these kind of snakes) and he said, its obvious whats going on, but people just dont talk about it.

Ie for one would love an alibno brbs, but at the cost of it being smuggled in, not a chance. The goverments have rules, and while not always successful, or doing it the right way, there are essentially trying to help each individual species.

i would love to hear peoples opinions, especially people involved with these kind of snakes, PM if you want dont want to right on the forum. As said im not trying to stir sh*t up, but it does worry me in some ways.

what will these morphs do to the industry, well for carpets, it will be awesome, so many combos what be able to be mate, i myself will watch in awe as to what some breeders will be able to produce. But at what price??? and im not talking about money

sorry for rambling on.....

[Athravan]

If I was asked in advance, do I want to order a snake to be smuggled into the country, to encourage and finance this sort of operation, I would of course, say no, whatever the animal, however good the price. The laws we have in place regarding import/export are there for a reason.

Perhaps some would justify smuggling out an albino carpet python by saying that it would most likely die in the wild before adulthood anyway, thus it is not really meant to be part of the wild population and is an unnatural aberrant that can only serve the ecosystem to remove.... but it doesn't really matter, because if you condone the smuggling of one animal, it opens the floodgates for it to become more acceptable to smuggle other things. AU has quite a number of highly sought after reptiles and I am sure people would pay a lot of money for genuine WC localities of quite a few Australian animals - and especially some of the lizard species too.

But if snakes are smuggled in - and were bred - the offspring then offered for sale, I have to say, it would be very tempting, not to question too hard the origin of the parents if it was something that I really wanted to, and an opportunity to be one of the first to own them.

Hope that doesn't make me a bad person!

[Fixx]

Originally Posted by Athravan

Hope that doesn't make me a bad person!

Nope, just an honest one



pssst wanna buy some Koala bears?

[Pliskens_Chains]

the smuggling thing is a touchy subject especially with many native species to australia being endangered.
i really think that its awful for wild caught creatures that are endangered to be shipped abroad to foriegn countries where they have less chance of saving the species in a hobbiests hands.

however, i wouldnt ask too many questions if the species in question was one that had been bred in captivity (not WC), especially if it happened to be a morph that was unlikely to be found or survive in the wild.

[brick]

Originally Posted by Athravan

If I was asked in advance, do I want to order a snake to be smuggled into the country, to encourage and finance this sort of operation, I would of course, say no, whatever the animal, however good the price. The laws we have in place regarding import/export are there for a reason.

Perhaps some would justify smuggling out an albino carpet python by saying that it would most likely die in the wild before adulthood anyway, thus it is not really meant to be part of the wild population and is an unnatural aberrant that can only serve the ecosystem to remove.... but it doesn't really matter, because if you condone the smuggling of one animal, it opens the floodgates for it to become more acceptable to smuggle other things. AU has quite a number of highly sought after reptiles and I am sure people would pay a lot of money for genuine WC localities of quite a few Australian animals - and especially some of the lizard species too.

But if snakes are smuggled in - and were bred - the offspring then offered for sale, I have to say, it would be very tempting, not to question too hard the origin of the parents if it was something that I really wanted to, and an opportunity to be one of the first to own them.

Hope that doesn't make me a bad person!

nah mate, an honest one as said above. I guess in some way, i brought up this question, in some way questioning myself. Would i buy a het albino carpet?? i know i couldnt buy the originator, but the hets, born in captivity, i just dont know. In some ways, buy buying you are saying its ok, that the original snake MAY have been smuggled, but by not buying in may end up in even more dodgy hands than previously!! Also if someone runs a legitmate snake business, i can understand the power of buying this kind of morph, i saw a pair of albino hets on sale for 18k canadian, if you had that kind of money to start with, you would certainly make it back plus a lot. I guess the same pricing is in place in europe, as the albino carpet is a german/canadian business agreement.

[alinoee]

i think its same when people are coming back from vacations on cuba with croc pawn on key chain. most 'exotic' snake i have is hogisland boa but if someone would offer me 'fresh' blood i would brake his legs. (i'm still looking for female thou : )

[brick]

Originally Posted by Pliskens_Chains

however, i wouldnt ask too many questions if the species in question was one that had been bred in captivity (not WC), especially if it happened to be a morph that was unlikely to be found or survive in the wild.

as said, i not trying to stir stuff up, but i mean where is the line? you say it not ok to buy a smuggled snake, but MAYBE ok to by its offspring?

i agree that an alibno its not likely to survive in the wild, watching AUS forums, i thought there had only been one ever found in darwin to start with, and not many around. Also i know there is alibno olives in AUS collections aswell, i wonder when someone gets lucky and happens to produce one in captivity in europe or the states??

i fiqure that carpets, have probably made they were to europe, as hets, maybe smuggled in as Irian Jayas. How they got to indonesia to start with i dont know... i mean you ship 998 IJ's and 2 carpets to europe, will anyone catch on, probably not.

The Lacey Act, should prevent these animals from making it from europe to the states, but there are now some in canada. they being sold for a fortune, and i bet you see them pop up in the states before too long

[peaches]

Was pointed in the direction of this book about reptile smuggling. One for the wish list, sounds like an eye opening read.

Amazon.com: The Lizard King: The True Crimes and Passions of the World's Greatest Reptile Smugglers: Bryan Christy: Books

I know slightly off topic to your question but relevant none the less

[SnakeBreeder]

If these albinos are being produced in collections then they are captive bred.
If the line has been captive bred for a few generations then you can ship them out under normal CITES controls.
I may be wrong but understand that a captive bred carpet python ( In the US or Europe) is not under the same controlls as one trying to leave Australia.
Stephen

[Athravan]

It is also not impossible that an albino can show up for the first time in captivity rather than in the wild, it is not likely, but people do win the lottery every week, less likely things probably have happened. How can you really know if an animal has been smuggled or not?