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My experience with Inclusion Body Disease (IBD)

46K views 202 replies 71 participants last post by  jarich 
#1 ·
RIP Clementine, my beloved Corn Island boa girlie. She died on the 7th of July 2009 due to massive renal failure. She had started to show signs of ill health on the 20th of June 09. Nothing that was overly serious in my mind at the time. She was going through a bad shed, something which she had never had before. Her skin was horribly wrinkled and looked like leather. She also refused food on two occasions, something that was also completely out of the ordinary. She would normally eat in shed or out of shed and dangling from the rooftops (figure of speech). She then started to become slightly lethargic so off to the vets it was. The first time I was told to take her home and wait for her to shed. I got her home and she did not improve, nor did she shed. I took her back a few days later with increasing worry incase it was some sort of infection. She was sent home again with oral Baytril and critical care and high fat food to tube feed her and hopefully hydrate her and perk her up. She started this medication on the 26th of June and it continued until the 5th of July when I decided enough was enough and stopped. On this day I knew something serious was wrong with her and no amount of critical care was going to bring her back. She was extremely swollen in her kidney area, lethargic, almost completely unresponsive, spinning her head, corking her head into the most strange positions and was almost completely limp. The most worrying symptoms was the fact she was unable to right herself up when placed on her back. She was rushed back to the vet on the 6th of July and I knew then she wasn’t going to get better and IBD was spinning in my mind. She was admitted to the practise but nobody expected her to make it through the night. She was given a blood test when still alive. I got a call late that night to say her white blood cell count was through the roof. The count should have been 2-3000 and it was 36000. Kidney count should be 4-500, hers was 13-1500. I was called around 9.30 that night after the blood test was done to say inclusions had been found in the blood, and I knew then I would never see her again. I was called very early on the 7th of July to be informed that Clementine had died overnight. I had already given permission for them to do an autopsy (as of course you would will ANY unknown illness). After the autopsy was done and all the pathology came back I was informed on the 21st of July that she had indeed died of Inclusion Body disease. RIP my wonderful lassie, you will never be forgotten.

For those who are not aware of IBD or what it is, I will try to explain it as simplistically and factually as possible from my own experience, understanding and research. Inclusion body disease is a viral disease which manifests in captive bred boas and pythons (aka boids). As in the case of the human virus AIDS, IBD is a retro virus and spreads through bodily fluids (ie breeding or through unhygienic contact with faeces or other fluids from infected snakes). The most common transportation of this disease in captivity is through mites. This very dangerous little vector only has to suck the blood from one infected snake to spread it around entire collections. Just before Clementine became ill I had been battling a mite infestation (That came from god knows where as in my 4 years of keeping snakes I have never had mites), and she indeed had mites. Infected mites can spread it to any species or genus of snakes, however there is only conclusive evidence of it physically manifesting in boas and pythons. Colubrids CAN carry the disease but may never ever show the signs or symptoms. However this is when the snake mite can suck the blood from a perfectly physically healthy yet infected colubrid and spread it to boas and pythons.

Mites are a serious pest and MUST be eradicated in the most severe manner possible within captive collections. I cannot stress enough how much stress and grief they have caused me, and they could have possibly infected my ENTIRE collection with IBD due to how quickly they breed and spread from snake to snake. I use front line on the snakes and preventamite in their cages. I soak ALL viv furnishings and plants in bleach, then spray with F10 and finally spray with proventamite. During a mite infestation I would advise you leave all hides and plants etc out of vivs. Instead opt for clean white kitchen towel layers the infested snake can bury or hide in, just long enough for the mites to die off. This makes it easy to see live and dead mites and gives the eggs little chance of survival if you are replacing the kitchen towel every day. I would also advise on washing and hovering all carpets as mites travel a long long way to find their next host. And in that time they will be breeding and laying eggs in your carpets. The next time you have a mite infestation try putting some double sided selotape on your carpets surrounding vivs and see just how many mites will be stuck on it in the morning! Anyway enough about mites, I think my point about how dangerous they are has been made.

At the moment there is no cure for IBD. Once the snake is showing signs and symptoms you can guarantee it will succumb to the disease. Boas are known to be long term asymptomatic carriers of the disease. This means that whilst boas can catch the disease the can harbour it for years before it finally manifests. Whereas pythons tend not to have more than a month once they have caught the disease. Thus why pythons are almost like a canary in a mine shaft when you have a confirmed case of IBD in your collection. I can happily say that my 3 pythons (spotted pythons and a chondro) are perfectly fine almost 2 months since Clementine became ill. This is a very small relief for the time being. When taking the manifestation period into account in regards to boas, it is evident that NO amount of quarantine will ever protect you against IBD coming into your collection. You may have boas that have carried the disease their entire life and NEVER shown symptoms. Clementine could have been born with IBD (as it can spread from mother to babies, just like human aids) and almost 3 years later that is it just staring to rear it’s head. Or she could have caught it from any one of my other snakes brought in over the years when I had a mite infestation.

The point is NOBODY knows where IBD comes from. And how is it possible to track a disease which is sooooo good at hiding. No snake keeper on this planet can claim their collection is free from IBD. The only thing we can do is prevent the spread by adhering to the highest standards of hygiene and care as possible. Ie reduce the risk of the spread of infection by washing all feeding tools and disinfecting your hands between every snake etc. This may seem like common knowledge but ask yourself do you practise these methods between EVERY SINGLE SNAKE? I am guilty of not doing so often in the past when I assumed my snakes were all perfectly healthy and fine. Now, there is no chance of a lapse in my hygiene procedures. Not that I have learnt that lesson the hard way.

Some of the most common signs and symptoms of IBD are stargazing and cork screwing of the head and neck. This generally means inclusions have entered the brain and have cause the snake to have no control over it’s neuro system which includes coordination and movements. Ie why Clementine was not able to flip herself up. Here is a picture to demonstrate. (not of Clementine)



An infected snake may also experience head tremors, chronic regurgitation, the inability the shed, dehydration, anorexia (ie not willing to feed) and secondary infections may develop such as a respiratory infection or pneumonia.







There are no images of Clementine when she was ill. In retrospect I should have documented her illness, but not in a million years did I think it would turn out to be so serious.

There is a chance every single one of my snakes have IBD, and there is a chance that none of them do. But the fact is I have to treat them as infected individuals because you cannot test conclusively for IBD on a live animal without a positive result for inclusions either in the blood or through organ biopsies which are invasive, painful and extremely expensive. A positive result is definitive, but a negative result in a live animal does not mean it is free from IBD. I have had blood tests done on 3 of my other boas and all of them are negative. However this does not mean they don’t still carry the disease. Here is a diagram of a boa who is having an ultrasound guided liver biopsy (which can only be done under anathesia, another risk to add when testing for IBD on live snakes.)



IBD is not a common illness by any means. But I am sure there are a few cases which have not gone public due to the fear of a ruined reputation. Keeping quiet and carrying on like nothing has ever happened is how this disease spreads. And if you are reading this and have ever done such a thing, bow your head in shame! I have no shame in admitting I have had ONE snake die conclusively of IBD. I have nothing to lose from sharing my experience with other people if it helps to prevent this utterly horrific disease. I will NEVER be able to breed, sell or buy snakes until every single snake I currently have is dead and buried. I have two gravid female candoia carinata ready to drop any day now after 8 months gestation. And I will have to keep all of the babies. Sorry to those who were on waiting lists and keep asking about when the girls are due. I cannot risk selling ANYTHING whether they appear to be healthy or not.

I would like to make it clear that in no way shape or form am I laying blame to anyone for the fact I have had one snake die from IBD. How can you trace a disease which can harbour for a boa’s entire lifetime. Was it spread from a snake I no longer have? Was it from a snake I have had for years that was affected by the mites and spread it to Clementine? I have only ever bought from reputable breeders and well known forumites, so that is something to think about.

As for my other snakes, they are ALL acting normally. Absolutely none are showing signs or symptoms of IBD at the moment. All I can do is enjoy each day as it comes with every one of my pet snakes. It saddens me I cannot breed them but I bought them primarily as pets to enjoy, not just to breed so I have not lost out on much. I am just so thankful for the snakes I have, and to lose anymore would simply break my heart. I do not feel the option of euthanizing all my snakes is the right one for me. They all appear fine at the moment however rest assured any that do show symptoms of IBD will be euthanized straight away and autopsied to confirm whether or not they had the disease. I care too much for my snakes to unnecessarily euthanise them all without giving them a chance at life. As said earlier, some boas may carry the disease their entire life and may never show symptoms. That would be the very best possible outcome I could imagine at this moment in time and for the foreseeable future.

Thank you for taking the time to read my post, I am sure it has taken you a while. RIP Clementine, I miss you so very much lassie…









Here is the full autopsy and pathology report from Clementine’s case. Photographed due to my scanner being broken.



 
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#2 ·
sorry to hear of your loss and fingers crossed your collection will be ok. thank you for sharing your situation with us and the very useful thread. this should be on hand for any keeper to read as we dont all fully understand ibd and should be a sticky. again sorry to hear this : victory:
 
#6 ·
wow what a read and thanks for taking your time to write such an explanation of the disease and how it has affected yourself.
sorry to hear about clementine and good luck that this nasty disease doesnt rear its head anymore in your collection.
 
#9 ·
Sorry to hear about the little one, never nice to hear of stories like this. But more of a general question as I dont know the size of your collection or how close you are to them. Did you consider having all potential affected or carrier snakes pts? And why did you not and maybe only put a few very special snakes through biopsies? Curious more than anything as when I had larger boas I always said to myself no matter what money would be going down the drain I would start a fresh if it ever happened to me. Thankfully never had to make such a decision but sure thought about it. But a different thing actually being in the situation.
 
#12 · (Edited)
I have 20 snakes. 4 Candoia carinata, 2 Candoia paulsoni, 2 Candoia tasmai, 1 Corn Isle boa, 1 BRB, 1 ATB, 1 chondro, 1 black milk, 2 spotted pythons and 5 corn snakes. I am very attached to my pets. They were bought as pets and not part of a breeding scheme, however it was my intention to breed some pairs, particuarly the candoia as they are such a captive bred rarity and I felt the desire to work with such a wonderful genus of minunderstood and underrated boas. I cannot breed any of them now. The two gravid carinata females have been gravid for 8 months now so I will have to keep all their offspring.

As I wrote in my thread I do not think it is necessary to euthanise ALL my snakes at the moment. I adore my animals, and if they can live long and healthy lives by never showing the disease then who am I to take it from them? They will never be sold or bred or paraded around to friends or outside etc. The are simply my animals that I enjoy.

I decided only to test 3 snakes due to the fact that after 3 negative blood tests from the boas in the closest proximity to clementine testing negative, I realised I would never know if they were positive or not. Blood testing is a bit of a waste of time because a negative result can still be a positive result.

I am treating all my snakes as potentially infected, so until they start showing signs or symotoms then I am happy to take care of them to the best possible standard. If any show even the slightest sign or symtom of IBD I will have them euthanised in a heart beat.
 
#11 ·
I am terribly sorry for your loss.. I hope you are OK, she looked like a lovely snake.
And as everyone has said, thank you for taking the time to write all of this, its a long read, but one worth reading and learning.
Its just a shame you had to learn about it the hard way

R.I.P little Clementine
 
#14 ·
Great thread!! I hope your Pythons remain well. Perhaps we should keep our Pythons as far away from our Colubrids and Boas?
Perhaps it should be boas away from everything else? Or should it be colubrids away from everything? Or just everything away from everything. Because both can harbour the disease. It's ONLY pythons that succumb to it generally within 2-4 weeks. They go down hill extremely fast.

I read an article of one keeper in America who used pythons as indicators of IBD in their boa collection. They kept a royal python in the same viv as boas, and within 4 weeks all the pythons were dead from IBD.

Again this is an extreme view on the subject. But if I ever do build up a snake collection again once all my current ones are dead and burried, I will be thinking very seriously about the length of time I quarantine, which snakes go in which rooms nevermind which racks etc. It's something to think about in great depth, but you could drive your self crazy!
 
#16 ·
It was just under 3 hours. Over 2000 words. Nothing I am not used to with the amount of report typing I have to do for my degree.

But thank you Pauline. I hope so too. That would be the best possible outcome from this whole situation.
 
#21 · (Edited)
Well Gaboon, I never had mites until late December, after I had just bought some new snakes. I didn't know how to deal with them properly. I tried the nice methods such as oil baths and simplistic setups etc but that is just not enough to eradicate the wee buggers. You cannot kill mite eggs lurking in their vivs or tubs with extra virgin olive oil...

I don't go to shows or meetings or gatherings for these reasons. You never know what other people bring along to these mass reptile events where many many species from so many different sources are brought together. I remember when I used to attent the Scottish Exotic Animals Society. I was buying a male tri coloured hog nose from a guy at that meeting. After inspecting the hoggie it was clear something was wrong. He pooped green stuff and was quite lethargic. I never took him home with me, but instead asked for my money back. But he was in that room with many other reptiles and was treated like he had the plague.

Mites travell on clothes and anywhere they can hitch a ride until they find their next host. I don't know what precautions you could put in place at these shows? I suppose the best method would be to shower and change clothes immediatley before going near your own collection after returning from such an event.
 
#24 ·
I think the best thing to do is treat ALL your snakes for mites every few months. I know I will be doing it every 6 weeks for the next wee while since the latest infestation was only cleared up 2 months ago. And with the added worry of any mite eggs lying around being infected with IBD from the blood of the mother mite. Whether or not mites can pass IBD onto their eggs I am not sure, but I will treat it that way.

Anything new that is brought in could and probably should be treated whether they have visable mites or not. Why take the risk? Front line is NOT that expensive. I have treated and retreated 20 snakes for the last 4 months with a small bottle. And it's still half full. And within 24 hours you will find dead mites all over the place.
 
#29 ·
Anything new that is brought in could and probably should be treated whether they have visable mites or not. Why take the risk? Front line is NOT that expensive. I have treated and retreated 20 snakes for the last 4 months with a small bottle. And it's still half full. And within 24 hours you will find dead mites all over the place.
I personally treat when they first turn up, it makes sense too, great fun when you have an already grumpy snake from the days travels. But personally im very old school as use ivermectin, find nothing beats it, plus been using it for so long that I know how much a snake of a certain weight can take, love it though really does do the job. I tested a branded reptile mite spray that shall remain nameless and it didnt even slow the little sods down. Been ages since I last saw a live mite, thankfully!!!
 
#26 ·
the more i see about mites and how quick they spread the more i am thinking about getting a bottle of frontline to put away just in case, i might never catch them but in the chance that i do then i will have the prevention straight away and not allow them to spread.

where is the best place to buy it?
 
#28 ·
You can get the spray bottles online if you have a vet prescription (as it is powerful stuff). Or just from your vet. I would also recommend proventamite which can be imported easily from the states. I prefer using that on the snakes environment as frontline needs to breath for a few days before putting the snake back in the viv.
 
#27 · (Edited)
Mass outbreak is a very unlikley and extreme situation. IBD has been around since the 70's. It's just slightly more common these days.

The problem is this.... Some people are reluctant to pay money for expensive mite treatments. Why bother when people claim that olive oil will cure all their problems? Some people don't want to take their reptiles to vets because they get a "diagnoses" off forum know it all's. Some people don't want to get post portems done... why spend more money on a dead snake.

These are things that people need to think about. Reptiles cannot be read like a dog or a cat who is able to tell you it's in pain. Can you imagine the amount of pain Clem was in with such massive renal failure. Her bottom 3rd was rock solid byt the 5th of July yet she was barley able to respond to me gently squeezing the area to see if it was hard or soft. I don't know how long Clementine had IBD for. She only showed typical IBD associated symptoms 2 days before she died, and that was the neurological damage. How long does it take for that to happen!?
 
#30 ·
really sorry to hear about your loss. I guess it something that all of us think about, ie the what ifs and buts etc etc.
Im impressed that your willing to keep the collection going, but IMO is it worth it? You said that you would be happy to start up a new collection once all yours have passed on, but this could take 20yrs in theory. Are you willing to not travel to shows, see other breeders etc etc etc.
I guess IBD is so much like AIDS is peoples mind. We all know that we are not going to catch AIDS by keeping contact with infected people etc, but it would also be in the back of your mind. Whether thats right or wrong.
I think its very impressive that you have stated what has happened, as i believe there will be many other people that try and hide this kind of stuff.
Do you think it will affect how you perceived in the hobby?

sorry if these are weird questions, but it just has my mind thinking. Sorry its 4.30am where i am.....
 
#36 ·
really sorry to hear about your loss. I guess it something that all of us think about, ie the what ifs and buts etc etc.
Im impressed that your willing to keep the collection going, but IMO is it worth it? You said that you would be happy to start up a new collection once all yours have passed on, but this could take 20yrs in theory. Are you willing to not travel to shows, see other breeders etc etc etc.
I guess IBD is so much like AIDS is peoples mind. We all know that we are not going to catch AIDS by keeping contact with infected people etc, but it would also be in the back of your mind. Whether thats right or wrong.
I think its very impressive that you have stated what has happened, as i believe there will be many other people that try and hide this kind of stuff.
Do you think it will affect how you perceived in the hobby?

sorry if these are weird questions, but it just has my mind thinking. Sorry its 4.30am where i am.....
To me my animals are worth everything. I would only start up a new collection once all my current snakes are dead and buried. I say that now but I don't know if I could bear to go through all this again. And if I still have one or two snakes 20 years down the line I will still be enjoying this hobby.

I have never travelled to shows or anything like that anyway. I am not interested in large gatherings like that. Reptile shows do not appeal to me. Anything I have bought in the past has been from reputable breeders and well known forumites. So what does that say?

I now percieve the hobby the same way I always have. These are organic things we "collect". They WILL die at some point. When and how is a different matter. I enjoy my pets and care for them to the highest possible standard I can. I have upped my game ever since Clementine died and it is a lot of work to try and keep every snake out of contact with each other in every way possible. But if it's what I have to do then I will just get on with it.

I don't regret my descision to go public with this. By keeping quiet what kind of person does that make me? I have informed all the people who have bought snakes from me recently as well. They NEED to know. I have went public to protect other people and to raise awareness.
 
#31 ·
I have tested commercial reptile branded mite treatments and 99% of them did not even make a slight difference. Those were mainly exoterra ones such as mite off or mite be gone and all that jazz. Proventamite has been recommended by many large reputable breeders, and I would recommend it after how quickly it exterminated any mites in my snakes vivs. Frontline killed 99% of the mites within 24 hours. I was seeing dead mites in less than 2 hours on some snakes in fact. I have not had any more mites since I started attacking them with those chemicals more than 2 months ago.
 
#34 · (Edited)
haha yeah i tried mite off when i first started with snakes, and what a joke that product was. I thinking it helped the mites reproduce!!!
I only had one outbreak a few years ago, and provent-a-mite solved the problem. I now use it on all tubs weekly. Basically i have about 100tubs, sitting on the shelves ready to be used when other a dirty. Every time i clean them, and put new paper in they get a slight spray.

prevention is better than cure
 
#32 ·
I treat all my vivs with Ardap which kills mites as soon as they hatch and lasts for 6 weeks. I also spray round the outside of vivs regularly just to be safe.

Maybe if the organisers of shows could ensure all tables were sprayed before reps were admitted it would help prevent the spread of mites and it would only take a few minutes to do.
 
#35 ·
Hmmmm, got me thinking now about having a wipe down with a very dilute solution of something, more as a barrier than anything but guess would only make a difference if all tables were done and given time to air a little, wouldnt take much as they are all covered in the blue plastic stuff anyway at doncaster which is easy to wipe.
 
#33 ·
Late 70's maybe but the hobby has sky rocketed in the last 10 -15 years. If mites inherit the pathogens then a saturation point will be inevitable. Then it wont be a case of "oh no I have mites" but a case of "oh no I have mites, and everything had IBD". This is hypothetical however. : victory: Wish I paid more attention in parasitology!
 
#45 ·
Elle, I have no adequate words, I'm sure, to even begin to balance the magnitude of your loss and disappointment. But I can thank you for the painful lesson in pictures and data that you have shared with us. When you first mentioned IBD, I had to google it, and have been reading about it as you gave us updates on the deterioration of the situation.
I have never had any of the exotics, but there is no particular reason for me not having had them, and I realize any of us could potentially find ourselves in a situation like this. Shudder.
The implications and magnitude of this case are tragic, but that it struck a friend...makes me pause and wonder how I would have handled it. Cried a lot. Phased myself out of circulation. Gone quiet. Disappeared from the forum(s). Gone from run-of-the-mill introvert...to extreme super dooper introvert.
What I am saying is thank you for the positive example of the affirmative and solution-oriented way you have gone about sharing your plight, and the dignity with which you've done so.
Eric
 
#46 ·
Thank you for sharing this with us, you have shown much courage in disclosing this information. Also your description of IBD is the best I have read. I have had many an argument on this forum that IBD is highly contagious and would get on peoples clothes and spread like wildfire. It will not ! It is a retro virus and like aids will spread with exchange of bodily fluids, but like you say it is the bloody snake mite that is the danger. I can not stress to any keeper that snake mites are not just a pain they can be deadly. I spray my shoes with flea spray and disinfect any reptile product that I buy from a shop. I don't use bark chipping but if I have to then I would leave it in the freezer for 3 days, wait a week then put it in the freezer again to break the egg cycle.

I have never heard of any IBD problem with anybody who did not have snake mites.
 
#47 ·
such a sad story :( commendents on ur courage and honesty witht the whole situation though.
I hope is hasnt/doesnt spread to the rest of ur collection. I agree witht the majority that this should be made a sticky because of what u have explained about this horrible disease so that it makes more people aware of it.

R.I.P Clementine
 
#49 ·
sorry for what has happened...............saying sorry when someone has lost someone or something they love always seems very inadequate thing to say but really cant think of anything else.

Would like to thank you for the factual and informative post. It was educational and I appreciate the time and effort you have gone to for everyone on the forum. Thank you.
 
#50 ·
Elle Love

I can't think of anything els to write here that has not been said already on this thread or more than I have said over the phone these past few weeks.
Wish I could have been with you at times to show more support and understanding.
I can't even start to imagine what it's like for other people but feels worse when it happens to someone you know.

I too have fingers etc crossed that your other snakes stay well.

Anne x
 
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