Red neonate GTP localities.

[Gaboon]

Are there any red neonate producing localities that can be trusted as at least existing as a true locality apart from Biak?

Would be interested to hear opinions of those in the know.

[essexchondro]

The answer to that question really depends upon what you mean by "true locality" and where you're going to draw the line in terms of what does and doesn't count as a bona fide locality type.

Animals originating from Karubaga and Bokondini (sometimes labelled Wamena, the name of the nearest large town) come in red, and so do those originating from the island of Yapen (which is next to the island of Biak)...but whether these are legitimate distinct locality types is less clear cut and open to some degree of interpretation.

[Gaboon]

Originally Posted by essexchondro

The answer to that question really depends upon what you mean by "true locality" and where you're going to draw the line in terms of what does and doesn't count as a bona fide locality type.

Animals originating from Karubaga and Bokondini (sometimes labelled Wamena, the name of the nearest large town) come in red, and so do those originating from the island of Yapen (which is next to the island of Biak)...but whether these are legitimate distinct locality types is less clear cut and open to some degree of interpretation.

Thanks for the reply. I understand true locality may be a little bold for all but the smaller island populations. Don't really want to get into that can o' worms!

In the more complete chondro Mr Maxwell suggests a reliable paper trial is the best way to keep track of locality types. Does such a trail exist?

[essexchondro]

Thanks for the reply. I understand true locality may be a little bold for all but the smaller island populations. Don't really want to get into that can o' worms!

In the more complete chondro Mr Maxwell suggests a reliable paper trial is the best way to keep track of locality types. Does such a trail exist?

For a very small percentage of animals being kept in captivity there are paper trails and evidence which proves the animals locality, but for the vast majority there is no such trail (at least not one that it made available to buyers, anyway*).

I would say that less that 1% of the GTP's being kept in captivity are independently verifiable locality animals...and I'm not aware of any animals being kept in the UK that are accompanied by paperwork proof of locality. Any "locality" animals that we have in the UK are usually identified as belonging to locality X based on their visual traits rather than available data on where they actually originate from.

* A lot of pets shops in the UK, for example, will not tell buyers who the exporter of the snake was and on which farm it was bred....it's all a big secret.

[Gaboon]

Originally Posted by essexchondro

For a very small percentage of animals being kept in captivity there are paper trails and evidence which proves the animals locality, but for the vast majority there is no such trail (at least not one that it made available to buyers, anyway*).

I would say that less that 1% of the GTP's being kept in captivity are independently verifiable locality animals...and I'm not aware of any animals being kept in the UK that are accompanied by paperwork proof of locality. Any "locality" animals that we have in the UK are usually identified as belonging to locality X based on their visual traits rather than available data on where they actually originate from.

* A lot of pets shops in the UK, for example, will not tell buyers who the exporter of the snake was and on which farm it was bred....it's all a big secret.

This apparent lack of transparency really does not sit well and it really does add to the reasons for supporting the verified CB dealers. I saw some red neonates on a well known pet shop site labelled as "Cyclops mountain" which prompted this thread. I wondered if it was possible to ID with any degree of certainty a likely locality (Cyclops mountain or other) based on the facts that they are red, they are not labelled biak and perhaps the locality of the Cyclops mountains.

Referring again to Mr Maxwells book: the chondro farm Terreria Indonesia comes highly recommended on the locality breeding front. Does anyone import animals from there to the UK or Europe, or from their US outlet Bushmasters Reptiles Inc.?

[essexchondro]

This apparent lack of transparency really does not sit well and it really does add to the reasons for supporting the verified CB dealers. I saw some red neonates on a well known pet shop site labelled as "Cyclops mountain" which prompted this thread. I wondered if it was possible to ID with any degree of certainty a likely locality (Cyclops mountain or other) based on the facts that they are red, they are not labelled biak and perhaps the locality of the Cyclops mountains.

The correlation between locality and adult visual apparence is relatively loose (especially for the mainland types) so you can't really make legitimate loclity claims based solely upon appearence. It's even harder to do so based on baby colours considering that you can get reds and yellows in the same clutch!

Referring again to Mr Maxwells book: the chondro farm Terreria Indonesia comes highly recommended on the locality breeding front. Does anyone import animals from there to the UK or Europe, or from their US outlet Bushmasters Reptiles Inc.?

I've no idea to be honest with you, like I say, all the pet shops that do import gtp's don't seem to want to advertise where they originate from.

[Gaboon]

Originally Posted by essexchondro

The correlation between locality and adult visual apparence is relatively loose (especially for the mainland types) so you can't really make legitimate loclity claims based solely upon appearence. It's even harder to do so based on baby colours considering that you can get reds and yellows in the same clutch!

True. As I read more it seems only adult biaks can be ID'd with any degree of certainty. Unfortunately though, due to this lack of transparency from importers and dealers, its always a possibility outcrossing/s may be part of (any if not all) the lineage of the animal/s in question.

I was hoping there would be a source for verified locality bred animals but that seems to not be the case so far.

Originally Posted by essexchondro

I've no idea to be honest with you, like I say, all the pet shops that do import gtp's don't seem to want to advertise where they originate from.

Again, this is all rather suspect.

[xxstaggyxx]

I think most shops wont say who they import from due to the fact they dont want there customers importing them selfs direct and saving a good few quid on them to be honest

[Gaboon]

Originally Posted by xxstaggyxx

Well to be honest i know exporters who ships to the UK on a regular basis

Where are they sourced from in Indo.?

Apparently there are 8 or 9 legit chondro farms in Indonesia but some are better than others. My position currently is that if you can import from a good sustainable and trustworthy source then that's fair. When things get 'murky' I have to suspect foul play. By that I mean the shipping of WC animals.

[xxstaggyxx]

Originally Posted by Gaboon

Where are they sourced from in Indo.?

Apparently there are 8 or 9 legit chondro farms in Indonesia but some are better than others. My position currently is that if you can import from a good source then that's fair. When things get 'murky' I have to suspect foul play. By that I mean the shipping of WC animals.

I dont know the excat locations of were they are souced from as even the exporters will not give that information out the will just say what we do like Biak ect

You are correct there are some good farms out in indonesia and i have contact with a good few of them i have even asked for exact locations were they collect from but they wont give the information out i can understand why as they want to protect what they do but would help us out to be able to know the correct localitey of the GTP's