Just one thing I'm sort of wondering.. why is there a so much higher level of sensitivity with tortoise keepers than other reptiles?

DISCLAIMER: I'm not advocating wild caught, imported, anything. I'm stating what I consider to be facts and then asking peoples opinions on it Discuss, don't argue!!

Examples:

Inverts - 90% + seem to be wild collected. This is accepted, they're not easy to breed in captivity and the cost of selling them is not really worth anyone breeding in large numbers.

Snakes / Lizards - there are many accepted "captive" species like leopard geckos, bearded dragons etc. but there are many which are sold wild caught. Some people frown on this. Some people buy them. Shops sell them because there's a demand, and wild caught is often the only way to get hold of some species.

Then we come to tortoises....

The demand is far higher than the supply, unfortunately, possibly due to the time they take to become mature and the space they need as adults. Pet shops sell imports because it meets the demand. Almost every post in the tortoise forum seems to contain people saying how bad pet shops are, how bad importing is, how bad wild caught is, how irresponsible people are etc.

I am wondering just why it is that tortoise keepers have such strong opinions when is it not identical to wild caught or imported lizards/snakes/spiders etc? All the animals can have parasites, all of them can have disease, all of them can be stressed.. yet I have only seen the huge condemnation of pet shops or importers in the tortoise forum.

I'm just wondering why it is lizard/snake keepers seem more accepting of import/wc than tortoise keepers.

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No internet at home for a few weeks, may take a while to respond. Should be back to normal in Sept.

Isnt it strange how you have had no responce to this thread?! ...

Could be that no tort people come to this part of the forum.......or, the fact that non-tort people are just "waitin in the wings" ...T.T.

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Weeds...There free ya know!!!

The whole wild caught thing is exadurated.

After some research, i have found the main sources of the WC tort "propergander" to be 2/3 breeders (NO NAMES) who constantly condemn pet shops and other sources as an "inferior" product, to boost thier own sales.

During a conversation with another member of this forum, on the phone (again no names) i was told that there had been a trap, where a alias of this member (another username) asked about a sick tort from a non existant shop. A breeder came back, straight away, claiming to have had deelings with this shop in the past and the animal was "certiainly" wc.

This in my opinion is only to boost their own reputations, and sales.

If otherwise, why do they lie (see above) and make such a big issue.

There are inevatably going to be a few WC torts "slipping throught the net" but this can only be benificial in the long run, in intorducing new blood lines, and thus having a deeper gene pool.

I usnderstand that they are CITES, and are endangered, but the fact of the matter is that the problem is nowhere near as bad as it is made out to be.

If there is a big problem, Prove it.
You have been asked on a number of occasions, to give references, statements from defra, cites and other sources, but have faild to produce any evidance.

In another light, i can see the issue.

Basically, the animals in question are endangered, and are protected.

But so are other speices, snakes lizards etc. and No one has a issue with that.

A few slip throught he net, as said, it will never be fool proof, or perfect. But the issue ist nearly as big as it is made out to be.

If it is, Give me proof, and i will retract this statement, and appologise.

Dan

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It is as predictated..."waitin in the wings"...

This thread was opened days ago...

no responce...

I posted at 10.06pm...12 minutes later...............bingo...

With such accusations flyin around...name names...T.T.

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Weeds...There free ya know!!!

I will not name names.

I only replied, as i use the "new posts" icon in the tool bar and reply to the ones that "take my eye" in the top list.

If you look at my recent posts you will find that i was not on when this was posted, so it wasnt brought to my attention until it was bumped up by yourself.

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Ha ha ha ha...not another stalker ...

To be honest there are not that many genuine UK tort breeders on this forum, now I know you are not refering to me in "the little make up another user name scam" but I do take offence to you saying that UK breeders slag off others... (in your words) to boost their own sales.
Again, I know this is not directed at me...but that there is "fightin talk" T.T....

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Weeds...There free ya know!!!

I just find it sad that almost every post in the tortoise forum includes a reference to a) pet shops being bad and b) pet shops dealing in WC tortoises. As a pet shop I find it a little condemning considering I've only sold one hermann's by special order and it came from a wholesaler - UK it said on the Cites paperwork.

Anyway, I just don't understand how I can sell 20 species of WC lizard and people just say oh, well, supply and demand, don't like it but we don't hate you.... a pet shop sells one WC tortoise and they're condemned for life on every forum that some of the people on here visit.

Someone can ask for help on a completely different matter, and it'll come down to slagging off WC tortoises on the tort forum.. I just don't understand the prejudice.

I would understand if snake/lizard people felt the same, but there are many species of unprotected tort like horsefields, leopards that are not endangered and should really be no different to importing a lizard or a snake.

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No internet at home for a few weeks, may take a while to respond. Should be back to normal in Sept.

Exactly what i think.

I can see the problem with WC CITES listed animals, i too would be angry if people were bringing in WC Mexican red knees, Jamacan Boas' Dumbrells etc.

If you actually look at the "figures" and the facts, you will find that in reality, very very few WC torts get here.

I don't say none, because some will "slip through" but very few. It is not a simple as just getting the paperwork, and thats it, you need inspections vet checks, export papers, import papers, licenses, quarentene facilities, and a host of other "red tape"

TT, i have no problem with you, and dont want another argument. Can we both be nice please?

Dan

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As far as inverts go it is 90% are captive bred and only 10% are WC the WC being new species that are best left for the experts and highly experienced and breeding inverts is not too hard. The only inverts that havent had much success in breeding with except tarantula barn's is centipedes.

As far as the tort thing maybe its the latest taboo havent really noticed what goes on with captive breeding and dealers in torts.

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"Tell me and I will forget, Show me and I will
Remember, involve me and I will understand"-Confucius 450BC


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqTzgNP2BK8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qZX9Dv0AI4

I think alot of adult inverts are WC at the moment, but the amount of people breeding different species and not just common ones, that all the slings and juvis you see for sale are definately CB or possibly CF.

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