what are peoples views on large collections i know that alot of people keep theyre animas in very simple vivs or racking systems but how do people feel about the quality of life for theyre animals.

its all well and good being simple clean safe etc but i can help but hate the newspaper substrate genoration, with nothing but water and food bowls.

this isnt targeted at owners who care to keep theyre animals in these conditions i just personaly feel its not right, as people who love theyre animals could surly go the extra mile for stimulating there animals minds.

again im not trying to cause trouble i just wanted to discuss any one agree disagree any points to be made?

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0.0.2 bearded dragons (phish and bisquit)
1.1.0 dogs (dexter the staffy and kaya the english)
work with-
0.0.2 beardies
0.0.1 chille rose T
0.0.1 royal python
0.0.1 amel corn
0.0.1 albino cali king
0.0.4 yellow belly turtles
0.0.3 pygmy chameleons
0.0.1 curly tailed lizard
0.0.2 leopard lizard
0.0.2 leopard gecko
0.0.1 frog eyed gecko

some of our snakes are in a rack as we have quite a large collection and it is the most practical way to keep them, but I dont use newspaper and only put snakes in rubs that are the right size for them, all our rubs have substraight and hides just like they would have in a viv

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I Hate big sigs

interesting one, I think its going to be all out war on here soon! Just for the record my brbs won't feed and get aggressive if kept in vivs but in their rubbs they are placid and never miss a feed. At risk of sounding controversial- Do reps want their minds stimulating? And if so what warrants a 'stimulated' reptililian mind. I feel that my snakes are perfectly happy to be in a safe, warm contained environment with water and regular food. I also feel that more active herps such as lizards and frogs need more in the way of decor to chase their food and hide, breed etc. Like I say though....good luck, I hope you have a tin hat ready!

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1.0.0 Fly River Turtle
*lots*Tanganyikans
1.2.0 Mitchells Reed frogs
0.0.1 beardie
1.0.0 Golden gecko
1.2.0 African Velvet Geckos
1.2.0 BRB
1 Marine tank (yes I have a "Nemo"!)

well the substreight is more for the owners benifit....the animal couldnt care a less what it is on

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my animals 1.2.0 royal pythons 0.1.0 bci 0.1.0 staffie x collie



if god had a twin i would be him

well thats me buggered then

I have a largish collection and I care to keep all of mine in simple, easy to clean and relatively safe viv/stack enviroments and while I don't use newspaper I do use kitchenroll, wallpaper, lino ... example ~




and I will go even further with bare essentials with regards to quarentine/treatment vivs/rubs

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SleepyDee Geckos


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So animals that exhibit burrowing behaviour in the wild dont need to do it in captivity? I can think of numerous species that use sandy substrates to ambush their prey or hide from predators, but because they're in a tank we can ignore this. Being in a tank isnt ideal but why cant we faciliate as much natural behaviour as possible?

I agree pymn with this, i dont like the newspaper RUB generation, if anything i find it ignorant to the complexity and beauty of nature. It makes it easy for the keeper to clean, feed and see the snake and nature just isnt like this.

In terms of stimulated snakes - little research has been done on captive stress levels but measuring cortisol levels in blood/faeces of both captive and wild reptiles would be a fantastic honours project for someone. Mammals and birds exhibit stereotypies (repeated meaningless behaviour) in captivity and perhaps nose rubbing, repeated path tracing and increased lethargy could be considered stereotypic behaviour in reptiles but because we have no base line data from wild specimens its hard to quanitfy if captives animals are indeed 'satisfied' or not.

SleepyD - i think your setups looks excellent, there's multiple levels, textures and surfaces for the geckos to explore and imagine they get change every now and again meaning the enclosure is rexplored. Ive seen a lot lot worse.

*ducks and hides before the s*** hits the fan.*

I use RUBs because they hold humidity so well and if animal starts to starve itself and strike repeatedly at anything that moves (and some things that don't!) when placed in a 'stimulating' viv then I'd lean towards saying that its stress levels may be a smidge higher than in a sterile, cruel, environment that is just to make things easier for the keeper (even though said keeper tried everything to make them 'happy and stimulated' in their expensive set up that is now sitting empty because they didnt like like it). I think a pinch of common sense is in order. Or shall I force them to live in an environment that they are clearly unhappy in just to please fellow keepers?

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1.0.0 Fly River Turtle
*lots*Tanganyikans
1.2.0 Mitchells Reed frogs
0.0.1 beardie
1.0.0 Golden gecko
1.2.0 African Velvet Geckos
1.2.0 BRB
1 Marine tank (yes I have a "Nemo"!)

Im a rub rack keeper, mainly on unprinted newspaper but also aspen for the ksb's, the royals get a plastic hide and a water bowl, some of the older ones dont use the hides so dont get one. I see it as no matter what you do unless you can convert an entire basement into a snapshot of africa for one or two royals for example there is no way I can recreate the natural environment.

To me (my personal opinion) a wooden viv with fake rock hides or cork bark is just as un-natural but harder to keep clean, in the wild they would be able to get away from where they poop or shed but in capitivity that isnt possible so unless its easy to clean there is a risk of build up of bacteria and anything wood is a bugger to deal with when a collection has mites. And for instance the kenyan sand boas would still have aspen if they were in a viv and would never use anything above the surface (I used to keep them in vivs many moons ago) so be it a plastic or wood box they still have the same view just more wasted space above them, which is a fundamental floor in most vivs is too much height.

I do agree very little in known about the effects of stress on captive reptiles but non of my snakes nose rub, all eat well, all bred if required, they are doing what they like to do which is keep away from predators including us humans. It is a method that has worked for me for many years (I started off keeping everything in vivs, even with a bigger collection) so until valid research is presented that states differently then it is the way I will continue.

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Oakelm Exotics
Keeper and hobby breeder of:
-Royal Pythons
-Kenyan Sand Boas
-Cornsnakes
-Childrens Pythons

www.oakelm.co.uk
oakelm@sky.com

as natural and stress free as poss i feel is the key, enrichment is crucial to prevent unwanted behaviours, i couldnt feel more strobly, and wish more interesting enrichment and natural stimuli were encoraged more, THEY MAKE HAPPY PETS what ever the species

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http://www.freyalouisebrisley.co.uk

Animal Behaviourist and Tutor of Management and Husbandry Skills
Currently; Malamute Rescue Dog, Akita Bitch, Rex Rabbit, Mini Lop Rabbit, Syberian Hamster,Orange Winged Amazon, 2 Dumbo Rats, The guinea girls, 16 Degus, Paris and Britts the hens, Tropical Aquariums, African Clawed Toad, Cats, Horses, Eyed/Jewelled Lizards,