** DISCLAIMER.. THIS POST IS THE OPINION OF THE WRITER AND IS NOT THE BE ALL AND END ALL... It is designed to help people who are confused about what to do if a reptile shop is bad.. opinions welcome **

Due to an increasing amount of posts that are negative regarding reptile shops, this post is written to perhaps answer some of the more frequently asked questions, and to give my personal opinion based on quite a bit of experience, on what you can actually do about it.

1. Work out your grievances.

Don't just go storming in there. Work it out. What is wrong. What would you like to change. Why is it wrong. Be intelligent, be articulate, be logical. Nothing worse than some random customer coming in, ranting a bunch of nonsense and stalking out. That's not going to help. Write it down, catalogue dates, staff members etc. etc. Take names!

2. Speak to the Manager / Owner

Before you go off guns blazing - speak to the manager and/or owner of the establishment. Using the information you have gained from point 1, talk to them about what you consider the problem is. Do not threaten them, but make it clear that you are not happy, and why. Sometimes, ignorance is the cause of problems, sometimes, shopkeepers are just very busy, and the animals suffer. Them knowing that people are noticing and not happy about it, may make them spend more time, or perhaps employ more staff.

If you think an issue is staff knowledge, take in information such as the Proteus, Compass, and Tortoise Trust courses, and suggest that perhaps some time could be wisely spent on education. This will look good for the shop when they reapply for their license as well as hopefully help the animals.

3. It's not working.. what do you do?

a) Well, first I would like to say.. what do you not do.

Don't publically name & shame unless you are willing to provide proof of your accusations. Current slander/libel law makes YOU responsible to prove your accusations are correct. It is not the onus of the accused to prove you wrong.

If you are prepared to take on the responsibility of public defamation, please think before you make that the responsibility of third parties - by posting it on a website, the owner of that website is legally liable for publishing the information. It is the owner of the website's responsibility to censor information that breaks laws, and for this reason, on places such as forums, like RFUK, you may find your posts removed and you may get into trouble for it. This doesn't mean people don't agree with you - it means their hands are tied.

Therefore, if you want to name and shame, don't force others to take the responsibility for your actions. It is best if you talk privately to people if you feel the need to - or discuss your fears/problems without naming the exact shop and with no personal attacks on staff members or owners/managers. Reputation is important and bad word filters through the ranks suprisingly quickly - you don't have to create a public outcry for people to realise it is a bad place and try to help you.

b) Who to report your concerns to

The Local Council
Each local council has a licensing department which is in charge of issuing pet shop licenses. Each council can set specific demands within their licensing terms. You will have to contact them to get these terms (they will give them on request, or many websites have it publically downloadable). You should address your letter, email or phone call to the licensing department, and ask for it to be forwarded to the vet inspector for the region additionally.

RSPCA
The RSPCA is not the first port of call. Although they now have the ability to remove animals from premises that they consider to be unfit, they have very little technical knowledge of reptiles, and do not have the jurisdiction to revoke pet shop licenses.

Trading Standards
Trading standards can be contacted if you feel that your rights have been breached, ie. something was sold to you inadequately.. if you are sold a bearded dragon as a leopard gecko, for example.. if you are told something reaches 3 foot when it gets to 10 foot... the items are being misrepresented. Legally items have to be "as described". However trading standards themselves are not knowledgeable on pets or reptiles, and it is most likely they will go back to the first port of call - the local council, and ask the councils vet inspector to visit. You might as well go direct!

Other Rescue Organisations
At the moment I am not aware of other organisations with power over pet shops, but will add it here if i find any new information. It is always worth mentioning that if you are in contact with a local organisation, you could ask them to evaluate the situation, as their experience may provide valuable input when making a report.

4. Making a Report, what to say?

Be honest. Be open... but don't be too emotional. They need facts, not a rant. Describe accurately what you have seen, include photographs if possible. If referencing what you have been told by staff, try to include the name, or a description of the member of staff. Leave contact numbers, home address, telephone number, etc. If you are affiliated with another reptile business, it is worth mentioning it, rather than it being used against you in retaliation. Address your concerns, and politely ask for someone to contact you to discuss them.

5. If it doesn't work...

Every complaint is a black mark against a shop - please consider this very seriously, as if it is not really that bad, and you make a complaint, the mark is still there. This is why you should contact the shop and do everything available before taking the serious route of making a report.
Your report may be one of the small stones in a large pile.. eventually, the worst shops in the country will face the consequences of their actions. What you consider to be the worst shop, could actually be very good in comparison to some, so remember, just because it is the worst you have seen - does not mean it is the worst that can be done to animals!

Perserve, do not be afraid to repeat complaints if new things crop up. It is only through legitimate routes hard work and patience that we can educate and where people refuse to listen, or do not care, stop them from harming any more animals, or giving any more incorrect advice to customers.

To be continued.... defining a "bad" reptile shop?

__________________

Most local councils give very little information on what is acceptable. This is unfortunate as it gives reptile keepers very little leeway in the things they can report.

The main things you can report are

1. If you are a customer, you can report that something was sold to you in inadequate conditions. Please keep all vet bills and ask for a report for the local council. This can include, mites, burns, feeding problems, dehydration, infections, scars, wounds, etc. etc. It does help if you have actually bought the animal and informed the shop of the problem.

2. Basics should be met. The basics include, housing, which to some extent includes lighting & heating, although some councils still refuse to recognise that the lighting and heating needs of reptiles can differ. The basics usually include water, and food. Again, the amount that this is offered varies, and there are no set guidelines.

There are currently no guidelines legally set for size of enclosure for reptiles, or cohabitation of reptiles. Nonetheless, please do report this where you feel it is inadequate, but you may find your concerns are better directed at an owner than the council.

3. Basic hygiene levels should be met. This includes... reasonabley clean vivariums, reasonabley clean water. No dead animals that are not attended to immediately when reported... correct storage of frozen foods & live foods.

4. Advice is subjective. Many things in reptile keeping is open to opinion. Facts should not be subjective. You should not be sold a nile monitor and told it gets to 2 feet long maximum. The basic information such as housing needs, diet needs, size, and lifespan should be provided - or this product has the potential to be misrepresented and missold, which is not legal.

At the end of the day, please remember that reptile keeping is not a precise science, it is an art.. which is widely open to opinion and conjecture. Two well established highly thought of breeders of the same animal can have very different opinions on matters of husbandry... if a shop disagrees with you, it is not a bad shop.. it is just someone with different experience. They might be open to your opinion, they might not be. It is not illegal to not listen to a customer. In this business, the customer is not always right.

Obviously use your common sense, there is a big difference between poor advise - and cruelty to animals. Make sure you think very hard before reporting a shop, but if you are not happy with the conditions, and do not think it is enough to shut the shop down, simply tell the manager why you think they are bad, and then do not continue to shop there!

Give your business to people who deserve it

__________________

i think it's important to add that i talk to alot of local reptile shops in and around my local area. and a few say that they get lots of people who think that they know best and that there is no way appart from their way of doing things.
forum politics aka forum rules.
i think it's very important to add that there is no one reptile keeper that is alike in their style.
it is important to talk to the shop assistant or owner but NOT to lecture, chances are they've learned through trial and error over a much longer period than you.

main message - STOP - THINK - TALK - DON'T JUMP DOWN THROATS - AND REMEMBER YOUR WAY MAY NOT BE THE BEST WAY. we all learn all the time so to make general assumptions is not the best way.

__________________

This is an excellent thread upon a very important issue. All Pets shops that sell live animals, be it reptiles, fish or mammals, are licensed and regulated by the relevant Local Authority. Therefore, theoretically, there is no excuse for a ‘bad’ pet shop to exist. However, the problem is those who licence such shops are given very little training or support in implementing the licensing regulations. For example most pets shops are licensed by the Environment Health Officer who’s main job is environmental health issues and the licensing of pet shops is 0.5% of there usual job. They may well have some training or knowledge of what might be considered ‘normal pets’ but have absolutely no idea about exotics such as reptiles. This is then further exacerbated when the shop owner moves into reptiles themselves for the first time, the blind leading the partially sighted!

Last week REPTA in conjunction with the Pet Care Trust and the Ornamental Aquatic Trade Association, sent a full colour leaflet to ever Local Authority in the country offering free advise to licensing officers. If anyone would like a copy of the leaflet I can email a PDF version of it. Already we have received several enquiries from EHO’s wanting advise on reptile issues. I would also be very interested to hear from anyone who might be interested in helping with the project in terms of offering local advise to licensing officers, or perhaps visiting with the officer to given them and the shop owner advice if necessary. I must stress this project is purely there to raise standards and assist the reptile industry – ‘want a be’ traffic wardens or ‘pseudo’ law enforcement need not apply…

deleted

__________________

www.purejurrasic.com
www.tarantulabarn.com
www.petshomealone.co.uk
8.24.12 leopard geckos
1.0.0 Pictus geckos
2.6.3 Fat tails
1.3.0 cave gecko G. Luii
1.2.0 Malayan forest geckos
2.3.0 Corns
1.3.0 Common Boas
0.0.1 Honduran Boa
0.0.1 Costa rican Boa
1.1.0 Disputed Corn Island Boas
2.2.1 Bribrons Gecko
7.3.0 Fan Foot Geckos
4.6.0 Marble Geckos

you can never no enough so i say u are always learning every one is diff so every 1 should hear how every 1 else keeps reptiles top marks for those that listen

__________________
Goldenboy
2 burmese pythons
5 Royals (1Het Albino)(3 het pied)
5 chameleons
17 corns
4 bearded dragons
10 gecko's
1 red eye tree Frogs
5 Whites tree frogs
1 rotti
12 baby berdies
2 baby mack snows
6 baby leo's
1 african mantid
1 morish gecko
74 cam eggs incubating
9 gecko eggs incubating


some pics are on the site in my sig
http://www.freewebs.com/reptiles-for-all/

Hi,

Not sure this is place to say this but ..........

A lot of people it seems have been commenting on "Cardiff Reptile Centre" in inappropriate threads on this forum.

I would like to take this opportunity to say that I visited the shop for the first time today and am very impressed by the set-up at the shop and also the friendly welcome I got from the staff, even though they were in the middle of feeding and cleaning the animals. At no point did see any herps being housed or treated in any way that would be harmful.

GOOD LUCK Leanne with your new venture, I hope to be dealing with you in the future.

Regards
Sean

I'll shut up after this post because I got the message but surely this can't be right, or it would at least be impossible to be enforced. Can you imagine if anyone who's been insulted in the forum (and there has been quite a few including myself many times) would decide and sue the forum ?

In that case a forum would not be able to exist, and nearly no subject would be allowed to be brought up.

By the way, it's not only reptile shops, I can quickly pick out threads slagging off Tesco, Asda, Curries, RSPCA (well there are loads about this), recently Proteus got a lot of bashing in a particular thread, etc.

So it's funny that this is only observed when some big shops come into the discussion. It's laughable how scared some of you seem to be about what this or that breeder / shop might think or do, while other 1000 similar threads went or go by un-noticed.

By the way, the thread I started and got locked was not even a criticism as such, and I would not have to have any proof to what I said with the info I gave. I saw that a couple of people have given strong opinions, but as you rightly pointed out, if they are members of the forum, they would have the same freedom of speech to come round and give their explanation to that only single question, and challenge anyone who made comments they might not be in accordance with.

__________________


Boas1.1 Hogg Island Boas1.0 Striped Hogg Island Boas0.1 100% Het Sharp Strain Albino BCI1.0 Sharp Albino Boa0.2 Colombian BCI0.1 Striped BCI1.0 Striped 66% Het T+ Albino BCI0.1 Colombian Pastel Boa1.0 Jeff Gee Hypo0.1 Hypo Suriname x PastelCats1.1 Cats (Wilson and Juliet)For sale

Please visit my web site: http://boidsrus.tripod.com

I havnt looked in to this situation fully, but no one could sue RFUK for what you said Dex because it is true... you made an observation and posted it.

Your thread was locked to prevent a free for all of people shooting down a reptile shop and giving personal opinions (rather than fact) on a matter that should be taken up directly with the shop. We havnt stifled your rights to state your opinion or make your point, your thread remains for all to see.. it was locked to prevent an unfounded downward spiral of negative comments as we see to often when discussing what a shop may or may not have done.

I will just reiterate that the intention of the mod that locked this was to let you state your claim, but prevent a thread that would potentially end in a bad way for a reptile business. We dont particularly want to be publishing negative threads about reptile shops in the UK do we? why give the antis any more ammunition over something like bulb protectors when this could be discussed with the shop in question, if like in your case you are shy... then send an email to the shop or contact me so I may approach the business on both yours and RFUK's behalf.

Cheers

__________________
Exotic Pet Wiki Encyclopedia.
Want to contribute? PM me.

My Reptiles:11 Royal Pythons1 Bearded Dragon1 GTP1 JCP1 BCIWANTED:Green Cat Eye Snake

Cheers Chris, I've already replied to Christy and Nige, and to be honest, I calmed down since and won't make any more fuss about it.

One way or another, things could have been conducted in a better way, but to be fair, I won't lose my sleep over it. It's just weird that 99.9% of similar cases went un-noticed, but as soon as a particular shop came into the discussion, the thread got locked.

The only thing I'll be very surprised is if they decide not to make any comments, because then it will look weird that they would rather threaten and get the thread locked rather than just giving a quick explanation to a simple point. For instance they could just come round and said: 'we keep reptiles for 200 years and none ever got burnt'. That would be more than enough to calm me down and maybe think I over-react when I see people not using lamp guards, although all the evidence I've seen in my lifetime as a keeper is that you have no excuses not to use a lamp guard.

In regards to others making unfair criticism, I'd not worry a bit if their posts were deleted, because it wasn't my intention to slag them off, it was just a way of bringing up a small observation hoping that someone who knows them would just give them a quick suggestion.

But never mind, I won't make this mistake again.

__________________


Boas1.1 Hogg Island Boas1.0 Striped Hogg Island Boas0.1 100% Het Sharp Strain Albino BCI1.0 Sharp Albino Boa0.2 Colombian BCI0.1 Striped BCI1.0 Striped 66% Het T+ Albino BCI0.1 Colombian Pastel Boa1.0 Jeff Gee Hypo0.1 Hypo Suriname x PastelCats1.1 Cats (Wilson and Juliet)For sale

Please visit my web site: http://boidsrus.tripod.com