If i came across a shop keeping animals contary to AWA or misleading possible customers, I would react the same way as I would if it were a private breeder that was doing the same.

Its not shops that get the bashing, its bad shops, and I am sure if u had a read through many of the posts on here, the same happens to bad breeders.

Private breeders DONT need to be licenced, holders of PSL know whats needed to abide by them, and still 'some' dont.

As for the DVD, well I am off down the pub to sell this pretend gecko that I made, some gulible keeper will want him cos he is cheap.

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As with all things in life there is the good and the bad.

I have been to some pet shops and been disgusted in the conditions of the animals and the way they are kept, the poor advice that has been given and the hooky animals thye sell.

I have been to other shops and been amazed how the animals are kept, the professionalism shown and the great quality of animals.

As for private breeders there are some amazing breeders who have years of knowledge, especially in that particular type of animal (if they specialise in that one) and I would rather buy a pet of them than a shop any day, but saying that there are those breeders who are out to make a quick buck and dont really care about the animals, so long as they can get them in and out making as much profit as possible.

I bought a Royal from a "good" shop and the CB turned out to be a forced fed CF individual that had ticks on it and this cost £90.

Since that experience I have and will only buy now from the big named shops and the odd private breeder who I know take great care in what they do and this is shown in the price and the quality of the animal.

Some of my best Royals have been bought for around £20-30 and I couldn't ever see a shop selling them for that price due to overheads.

Yes we are a tight nation, but would you pay £100 for a snake or animal from a shop or £50 for the same one from a good breeder that is in just as good condition if not better.

I see a lot more threads on here about bad shops than bad breeders.

Again there is good and bad in everything

(sorry if its incohearant rabble, im tired lol)

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I have been in numerous shops local to me and overheard conversations regarding the wrong husbandry or even seen with my own eyes. But yes there are the odd good shop around, not many however. But it's like everything else... you can't please everyone. As for breeders on here, I can't fault them.

With rescueing the majority of problems I have encounters has been with people who have APPARENTLY been given ill advice from a shop.

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I am very much aware that there are good and bad pet shops. The point that I was making is that it is wrong to assume that pet shop staff know nothing.
It is also worth being aware that if the local pet shop is killed off, the trade would be picked up by the supermarket chains – just like in the USA. Now that would be unfortunate.
If a pet shop supplies the fundamental care information and care sheets for an animal they sell, why should they be under any obligation to do anymore than that? Therefore why should I have to be an ‘expert’ in any particular species? At which point does the responsibility lie with the owner to learn for themselves? I know there are welfare issues to be addressed with animals but if I buy a pc I don’t come out of the shop knowing how it works – I have to find out myself right?
Anyhow the point I am making is that I do what I do to earn a living in an area that I find interesting. I do the best job I can within the framework of the industry. An industry that we ALL are a part of directly or indirectly, even though it is an industry that leaves a lot to be desired.
Breeders seem to think they have the moral high ground here and being a specialist in a single species makes them very important. I think it makes you narrow minded and oblivious to the bigger picture. Just look what specialist, caring, selective breeding for particular cosmetic traits did to the domestic dog – more health issues there than in any other species. Is it really a good idea to take a species with its own natural beauty and gild the lily by trying to change the colours? Sorry but I see no useful purpose in that. Most domestic animals have smaller brains than their wild counterparts thanks to selective breeding by mankind. Selective breeding for one trait often brings with it something unpredicted and it might not be immediately obvious read this if you want an example.Norway rat coat color, temperament, and domestication
Gone off at a tangent now haven’t I ………….I’ll get me coat.

Not only have you gone off on one hell of a tangent (several tangents, infact), but you're now making a very different argument to that made in your initial post.

In your first post you painted a picture of how pet shops and their workers were superior to breeders due to the licences and qualifications etc. The breeder was compared to a pirate DVD seller who's efforts amounted to nothing more than "adding 1+1 together" to bang out a load of babies. You portrayed pet shops as the moral backbone of our hobby and suggested that they cleaned up the mess created by breeders and that they were the ones who offered guidance and got people off to a good start.

Now, however, your saying that as long as the pet shop hands out a few care sheets they have no further obligation to the customer! You're now trying to pass back the responsibility to the consumer by suggesting that they need to learn for themselves. So much for offering guidance, eh! Handing out a few care sheets and giving the most basic of information is not what I'd call getting people off to a good start and its certainly less customer care and advice than you'd get from a reputable breeder. And that's an unlicensed, unregulated, and unqualified breeder to boot!!

I have no problem with your sentiments, they are undoubtedly good. Here's the problem - and you sum it up perfectly when you say that you do what you do to earn a living within the framework of the industry that you're working in - the problem is the nature of the industry! Pet shops are middlemen, they are dealers. They make money by either selling on someone elses captive bred animals or by selling WC or farmed stock. In the first instance the consumer gets a good quality animal, but they pay more than they could by going direct to the breeder. In the second scenario they get an inferior quality animal which probably isn't that different in price to a genuine CB direct from the breeder. I just can't see how the consumer wins by buying from a pet shop! (Especially if you're now saying the pet shop industry doesn't have or want the same level of responsibility that you implied in your first post).

You are correct when you say that some breeders have an over-exaggerated sense of their own importance, but the fact remains that consumers are better off getting advice on a particular species from a specialist in that particular species rather than getting it from someone who has good general knowledge of a lot of species but doesn't know about the species in question in any great detail (and as you suggest, may infact do nothing more than hand them a basic care sheet!). This is true in all areas of human knowledge.

For example, if you have cancer your GP will refer you to a cancer specialist. He won't try and treat you himself just because he has a good level of general knowledge when it comes to health and illnesses. To get the best advice on any subject you need to speak to the specialists. Pet shops are like the GP's of our hobby, good general knowledge but thats about it. They're the first port of call for the novices but most serious hobbyists don't buy pet shop animals IMO.

I wont comment on Norwegian Rats, dogs, or your position regarding selective morph breeding as these are all completely different arguments that dont really have anything to do with your initial position.

Close the door on your way out!

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I keep Green Tree Pythons, Emerald Tree Boas, Black-Head Pythons, Woma Pythons, Irian Jaya Pythons, Royal Pythons, Leopard Geckos and dart frogs.

Baby Sorong GTP's available, bred by me this year. PM for details.

The shop or breeder shouldn't be selling to said customers if they don't even know the basic care for the animal they are buying.
And I'am chosin to ignore that comment on adding 1+1 together.

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The people moaning that shops sell WC or CF animals....well if they didnt where would all your CB animals come from in the first place?!

Most shops stock does come from specialist breeders so as long as they are kept in good conditions then it shouldnt be a problem. Judging by the state of some breeders set-ups that I have seen posted on here most shops do keep them better.

Of course all CB stock originates from wild caught animals. However, and this is the crucial point, many of the WC and CF animals that pet shops now sell are not examples of obscure species that you can't obtain as a CB animal. Pet shops still sell a lot CF royal pythons, for example, despite the fact that there is a very well established CB pool from which stock is now being produced. Pet shops sell CF royals (often at CB prices!) because its cheaper for them to buy them in and that way they can maximise their profits. It has nothing to do with pet shops sitting at the cutting edge of the industry and providing breeders with founding WC stock for new species captive breeding projects.

For what its worth, I have no major problem with pet shops selling WC or CF animals as long as they are labelled as such so that we, as consumers, knows all the facts before we make the purchase. What I do object to is when WC and CF animals are labelled as CB. Not only is this extremely dishonest but it is also, somewhat ironically, an inadvertant admission by the pet shop that they know CB is superior to CF and WC. If you think this only goes on in the less well known shops then I can assure you it doesn't.

I question your statement that most pet shop stock comes from specialist breeders. Which breeders?? Certainly not the most respected ones in the industry who make a living out of what they do. I do not know of any well respected breeder that makes a living by consistently supplying the pet shop trade. Why would they when they could make more money by selling direct to the public themselves?? When you say specialist breeders I think you actually mean specialist dealers and/or specialist breeding farms which churn out high number of animals relatively cheaply because they are often based overseas with lower over-heads.

The best pet shop I've ever seen is Millenium Reptiles in Bishops Stortford. The shop is basically an outlet for the owners own CB babies. Granted, it isn't crammed full of 100's of different species but, as we all know, quality is better than quantity. Why can't more pet shops adopt that kind of approach???

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I keep Green Tree Pythons, Emerald Tree Boas, Black-Head Pythons, Woma Pythons, Irian Jaya Pythons, Royal Pythons, Leopard Geckos and dart frogs.

Baby Sorong GTP's available, bred by me this year. PM for details.

There in lays my problem.

These animals are 'just' stock to pet shops.

Yes, many shops DO care for thier stock , but there are to many that take the attitude thats all they are, stock.

I have lost count the number of times animals have been likened to washing machines, cars, dvds, and now PC's.

It is beyond me how that kind of statement can be made ! FFS since when is any man made inanimate object akin to a life form?

If a buyer dont know how to use a pc, tuff luck, it wont work. If a buyer dont know how to care for an animal, tuff luck , it DIES. !

Yes, buyers of animals have the same responsiblity as sellers regarding welfare knowledge, and thats why they ask questions in the shop.

Thats why staff should know about the animals basic care needs.

Thats why I have a beef about SOME pet shops, but by no means ALL.

Keep the animals well, give correct info and you cant go wrong, its not rocket science.

Skimp on food, space by putting different species together, costs by not using correct equipment, space by overcrowding and money and time by lack of training, and hey presto, a bad shop

AND the same goes for breeders who do the same !


Anyways, I am going to slip back to my lab and carry on working on this 6 legged leo that can recieve digital tv via its tail.... frankinstiens monster leo !

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Oh, forgot to say...

if a computer shop sells a pc which has a fault, say scratch or dent or something that may affect its ability to work, they have to say.

so, dont you think its right that if a pet shop offers a wc animal, they should state the possible problems with parasites, stress etc?

Or just pass it on for someone else to deal with ??

I am sorry to go on, but i do know may great pet shops, some of whom come on this forum and help out at no cost, but your first statement is just pure trolling.

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