corn morphs genetic requests.... any?? - Page 36

sparkle · #**351** (**permalink**) 18-07-2007, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ssthisto

What you'd actually want to do is put an amel corn - which would be known NOT to carry ultra - to a White Oak phase Grey Rat... and if you got ultramel-looking offspring, you've pretty much proven that "White Oak" in Grey Rat snakes is the same gene as "Ultra" in corns.

I remember reading somewhere that there's a type of kingsnake that has a newly discovered gene called "Peanut Butter" that works EXACTLY the same way as Ultra - hypo if it's homozygous, but 'extra hypo' when it's combined with Amel. Makes me wonder who got it first... and whether Peanut Butter is the same thing as Ultra... best way to find THAT out is combining a PB king to an Amel corn to see what happens!

ooooo... now u see all this talk of unlocking genes with throw back genetics to hybrids makes me wonder how some things can ever be termed 100% Definate PURE if it cant be traced back then back then back....

Ssthisto · #**352** (**permalink**) 18-07-2007, 08:14 PM

You get right down to it, there's no such thing as "pure" anyway - the distinctions we make are based on human diagnostics, those diagnostics change and you get shifting definitions of what's "pure" X or "hybridised" Y - because the definitions of X and Y change.

All the North American rat snakes* probably had a common ancestor. They've diverged through geographic separation and expanding to fill various ecological niches. It's not surprising that some genes are compatible with others, and that some mutations crop up here and there, looking similar to other mutations or working with those other mutations... because they're all related if you go far enough back. You go far enough back and Great Plains Rats and Corns are both "pure" Southeastern US Rat Snakes. I'd love to see MtDNA sequencing done on the North American colubrids just to see how closely related everything actually IS.

That's why, if I ever DO any hybridisation, I won't be calling them "creamsicle corns" ... I think that tacking "corn" on the end of things that are only partly cornsnake is misleading.

If I make Texas rat X Corn hybrids, they'll be "North American Rat Snakes" described as het for Texas Rat leucism and Cornsnake hypo, amel and anery. I think that's the only way I can ethically label them - and it will be made clear where each of the genes I know to be in those offspring (based on the parental phenotypes) have come from.

*Never mind just NA Rat snakes... North American colubrids as a whole seem to be pretty closely related seeing as they can produce interfertile hybrids, I wouldn't be totally surprised if most of the New World colubrids can be crossed to produce viable (if not fertile) hybrids, and I've seen Snakes 'n' Adders post a stock list with a Japanese Ratsnake X Corn hybrid on it... now THAT I didn't know was possible. Is there anything you CAN'T breed a corn to?

sparkle · #**353** (**permalink**) 18-07-2007, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ssthisto

You get right down to it, there's no such thing as "pure" anyway - the distinctions we make are based on human diagnostics, those diagnostics change and you get shifting definitions of what's "pure" X or "hybridised" Y - because the definitions of X and Y change.

All the North American rat snakes* probably had a common ancestor. They've diverged through geographic separation and expanding to fill various ecological niches. It's not surprising that some genes are compatible with others, and that some mutations crop up here and there, looking similar to other mutations or working with those other mutations... because they're all related if you go far enough back. You go far enough back and Great Plains Rats and Corns are both "pure" Southeastern US Rat Snakes. I'd love to see MtDNA sequencing done on the North American colubrids just to see how closely related everything actually IS.

That's why, if I ever DO any hybridisation, I won't be calling them "creamsicle corns" ... I think that tacking "corn" on the end of things that are only partly cornsnake is misleading.

If I make Texas rat X Corn hybrids, they'll be "North American Rat Snakes" described as het for Texas Rat leucism and Cornsnake hypo, amel and anery. I think that's the only way I can ethically label them - and it will be made clear where each of the genes I know to be in those offspring (based on the parental phenotypes) have come from.

*Never mind just NA Rat snakes... North American colubrids as a whole seem to be pretty closely related seeing as they can produce interfertile hybrids, I wouldn't be totally surprised if most of the New World colubrids can be crossed to produce viable (if not fertile) hybrids, and I've seen Snakes 'n' Adders post a stock list with a Japanese Ratsnake X Corn hybrid on it... now THAT I didn't know was possible. Is there anything you CAN'T breed a corn to?

Im please someone else is thinking along these lines.... this type of breeding is what interests me most... its the unknown and the finding out and the pulling the threads apart on the very inticate patterned rug of genetics

captaincaveman · #**354** (**permalink**) 18-07-2007, 09:18 PM

I keep half thinking about having a play with crossing my 'bino everglades into corns, but the only thing stopping me is the potential lack of interest in the babies

Ssthisto · #**355** (**permalink**) 18-07-2007, 10:20 PM

It'd be interesting to see if they're albino or hypo, CC... and if either of the genes are compatible with corn Amel/Hypo.

If your 'Glades are anything like my Irwin, I'd be tempted by a corn cross hatchling personally.

captaincaveman · #**356** (**permalink**) 18-07-2007, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ssthisto

It'd be interesting to see if they're albino or hypo, CC... and if either of the genes are compatible with corn Amel/Hypo.

If your 'Glades are anything like my Irwin, I'd be tempted by a corn cross hatchling personally.

what you mean the offspring, yeah, it'll be interesting to see how it would work, maybe i'll just have to do it

captaincaveman · #**357** (**permalink**) 18-07-2007, 10:49 PM

heres the girl in question, this gives the best idea of her colour and markings at the moment( can you see the faint stripes that have started to appear now)

and her colour when we got her(which i miss the peachy colour)

cornmorphs · #**358** (**permalink**) 18-07-2007, 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ssthisto

Basically, people SUSPECT any new morph

GPR are proven responsible for the yellowing effect in Creamsicles and the browning effect in Rootbeers - and may be responsible for some high saddle counts, but not all of them.

I've heard suspicions about Everglades/Yellow rats being the source of Bloodred and Stripe, though I've also heard of pure-looking wildcaught bloodred corns.

Ultra is suspected to have come from "White Oak" phase Grey rat snakes. This is in the process of being proved out - people are trying to find out if you get Ultramels if you cross an Amel corn to a White Oak rat.

Frosted saddles are also suspected as being from Grey rats.

If Leucistic ever shows up, people will be SURE it's come from Texas rat snakes - even if it's not.

Cinder (AKA "Z", Anerythristic C and "Ashy") has had suspicion leveled at it, though no concrete results, and the people who have pointed the finger tend to say Great Plains there too.

i think this has been done now

sparkle · #**359** (**permalink**) 18-07-2007, 11:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cornmorphs

i think this has been done now

any ideas on the results nige....

cornmorphs · #**360** (**permalink**) 18-07-2007, 11:30 PM

from what i remember it was from the oak rat.. you breed that to an amel and you get ultramels

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