Draft Code of Ethics - Consultation - Page 2

Diablo · #11 (**permalink**) 24-03-2008, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nicklamb

Nowhere does it suggest how you should do anything I suggest you read it properly and digest it before making a knee-jerk reaction.

It is a general code of ethics - it leaves the details up to the breeder. It is very similar to the ethics found in organisations such as the Kennel Club which I understand you are fully aware of.

This is about trying to do something for the greater good of the overall hobby which I would hope we all want to achieve.

If you do not want this to happen - just say so and let others make a meaningful contribution.

they are meaningfull nick
im sorry but i dont agree with what it says!
its my opinion

FAITH not Diablo didnt sign him out lol

arkreptiles · #12 (**permalink**) 24-03-2008, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucifus

I find that the herpology in general is well.....divided. I don't think anything like this will take off, i personally wont be signing anything or agree with any sort of body. Even our basic ethics are different and we wont be able to get everyone or most people to agree on one thing.

I agree with you and it is a shame really - breeders of other animals have done this (KC for example).

It seems that opinions are rife as detailed in other threads yet when push comes to shove - only a few are willing to try and do something positive and put their money where their mouth is.

Breeders of any animal will have differences of opinion on specifics of how to house or quarantine (for example) their animals but the fact that we do it and do it properly and adequately whatever method we use is all that matters. This is all the proposed code seeks to achieve.

I am always willing to take advice as we continue learning. However, I too would be reluctant to submit to an imposed set of specific criteria on how to keep my pets but am more than happy to agree to what amounts to a set of guidelines regarding basic husbandry.

I find it a sad reflection on the hobby that there is not a will to do this. As always is the case, the dissenters shout louder than the rest - what is their agenda? Let's just hand ourselves over to the suits in Whitehall to decide how we should do it - then where will we be???

Why we cannot have a basic ethics code that breeders adhere to on a voluntary basis to provide buyers with the comfort that the breeders act with care and integrity beats me.

Regardless of the outcome of all this we will adopt a code of ethics and advertise the fact - I think it is good practice.

arkreptiles · #13 (**permalink**) 25-03-2008, 12:29 AM

[quote=Rainwater;1538608]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nicklamb

Please consider this as a ‘working document’. It has been produced in order to elicit opinion from breeders and keepers to:

the idea of adopting a voluntary best practice guide
what such a guide should cover

(who made this decision, who came up with this?)
It is not a decision - it is asking for opinions (from anyone) on the two points listed!

No formal constitution is being proposed but that it should be administered in the first instance by the membership.

(a constitution - wouldn't a constitution democratically voted for and agreed upon with a safe majority be a fairer way of doing this. ll major instututions have one, why would this be any different?)
It would indeed be fair - however this proposal is only looking at this stage to find out if there is a desire for this. So in practice before potential interest is known the only members would be those that have signed up to adopt the code. If sufficient people were to do so then there is something to write a constitution for and indeed people to vote for it. During the initial stages therefore it would have to be administered jointly by the members - although there would be little to adminster during that period other than a system that logs new members.

In the first instance, it is felt that the Association should adopt the following:

Founding Principles
General Code of Ethics

(Who will decide these? Will these too be voted on?)
that is exactly the purpose of this consultation. There are (obviously) no members yet so it is open for debate. This is merely a tool to stimulate debate and allow all that want to contribute to do so. I would imagine that a consensual opinion would create their initial elements but reviewed if it were to take off by the members or their elected representatives at that time - of course there may be too few members to make it viable and it does not take off.

It is felt that in promoting such an association we are under an obligation to advertise the fact as widely as possible. To this end the IHS, FBH, other related forum’s and the Pro-Keepers Lobby will be canvassed for their opinions.

(Should they not be included in the talks if they hold this common interest rather than just being canvassed?)
I agree and perhaps the word canvassed may not have been the correct one to use - are you offering?

Founding Principles
1. to promote responsible reptilia, amphibian and invert ownership
2. to enhance our understanding and relationship with our pets
3. to create a voluntary medium for keepers and breeders of all reptilia, amphibians and inverts to exchange information
4. to provide a best practice guide for the captive husbandry and breeding of these species (and where will you get this? What will it include? What happens if someone wants to do it differently? What if you like 90F for leo heat mats and I prefer 85F?)
by providing a care sheet that I'm sure you already do - what is in it will be your advice based on your experience
5. to provide a means for prospective and existing owners of these species to identify breeders who adopt the best practice guide (Who says what's best? Matter of opinion...)
maybe calling it a code of ethics as the Kennel Club do may be a better phrase? - again opinions are welcome

CODE of Best Practice
Husbandry

Owners will keep all species covered under the Founding Principles in conditions appropriate to the species in terms of housing, environment, dietary and hygiene needs

(What if someone doesn't agree with your principles and prefers to do things differently - in which doesn't harm the animal in any shape or form. There's a lot of species and reptile...bit ''bureaucratic'')
they are not 'my' principles - this is being promoted as a voluntary code - a code that will ultimately be determined by the membership as described above

Owners will use appropriate quarantine procedures when dealing with new animals or sick animals (either medically diagnosed or suspected sick animals prior to diagnosis)

(The only thing I can think of you saying for this is a separate habitat and the animal must be kept alone away from others. Or do you have a different approach?)
the idea here and for most of these points is that it is for the breeder to decide the detail - these ethics are merely to provide confidence to the public that breeders that adopt this code (in whatever form it may take) do act with integrity and care for their animals

Hope this helps answer your questions - if you feel the original post does not reflect properly the ideas behind it then please feel free to make further suggestions - this is the whole idea.

see above for reply

Lucifus · #14 (**permalink**) 25-03-2008, 12:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nicklamb

Regardless of the outcome of all this we will adopt a code of ethics and advertise the fact - I think it is good practice.

Dont get me wrong its not that i dislike the idea, its just personally i don't like animal organisations including KC. However what i do dislike is some "group" or organisation telling others how they should keep there animals. Especially when this group will be a minority. Furthermore these guidelines are things we should be doing anyway.

arkreptiles · #15 (**permalink**) 25-03-2008, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucifus

Dont get me wrong its not that i dislike the idea, its just personally i don't like animal organisations including KC. However what i do dislike is some "group" or organisation telling others how they should keep there animals. Especially when this group will be a minority. Furthermore these guidelines are things we should be doing anyway.

Again It is difficult to disagree with you and I qoute from the original post

"It is felt that in promoting such an association we are under an obligation to advertise the fact as widely as possible. To this end the IHS, FBH, other related forum’s and the Pro-Keepers Lobby will be canvassed for their opinions"

I believe it should also have added on the end "and their input sought."

Surly · #16 (**permalink**) 25-03-2008, 10:51 AM

At the moment, I'm not sure. I think that as long as it was democratically made, it isn't a bad idea.

arkreptiles · #17 (**permalink**) 25-03-2008, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Surly

At the moment, I'm not sure. I think that as long as it was democratically made, it isn't a bad idea.

Hi Surly and many thanks for your input.

Again a very valid point - it definitely needs to be democratic - To be democratic it needs membership, to have membership one needs an entity to be a member of. For committee's to exist, members in sufficient numbers are required to elect that committee and only once a committee has been formed can a chairperson be elected. Not a quick procees when starting from scratch!! Hence the suggestion to undertake the process in the way described in the original post.

I also feel it needs to be representative hence this consultation. I will be seeking input and opinion from the bodies mentioned in the original post and indeed am compiling a list of as many breeders as possible to also seek their opinions - many of whom are not on this forum.

Jake89 · #18 (**permalink**) 25-03-2008, 11:24 AM

I dont think many will agree, plus i think with this in place it is away for the tax man to jump on your back and claim his bit for the extra wonga you are earning.
HMMM

purejurrasic · #19 (**permalink**) 25-03-2008, 11:53 AM

OK, I have had a good read, been bombarded with pm and emails and MSN !

I am aware that for whatever reason, my involvement is seen as laughable by some people, thats fine, everyone is permitted their own views.

Heres mine !

Quote:

Originally Posted by nicklamb

Can we ask that you take a few minutes to read through the working document below.

In light of recent uncertainty amongst reptile keepers and a healthy, emotive debate on this forum a few of us have taken a positive out of this and believe there is merit in producing a code of ethics that breeders/buyers could agree to.

This is a working document, so it can be edited, added to and developed further. We would therefore welcome candid and sensible suggestions and comments

Reptilia Amphibian and Invert Breeders Association (UK)
(Working Title) I belive this is to wider scope with which to begin this mamoth task, see my comments below.

Please consider this as a ‘working document’. It has been produced in order to elicit opinion from breeders and keepers to:

the idea of adopting a voluntary best practice guide
what such a guide should cover

Best practice in regards to what? keeping the animals, selling them, reporting etc. I still belive a code of conduct is better suited at this stage

From initial discussions/correspondence with breeders from both the UK and the US and more general opinion expressed through a number of public forum there is a perceived desire/need to have in place an ethical code to reassure the hobby of the health and well being of animals being produced and sold.

There are also concerns that new cultivars that are not properly tested before being released into the hobby, could and do, in a number of instances, have genetic issues that can affect behaviour, fertility and a number of other symptoms that may be deleterious.

Fully agree

In an ideal world a full system of registration of litters/clutches etc would be in place and available to breeders as would a register of available animals to the public. Such systems are in place for other Taxa for example through the Kennel Club.

However, in the example of the Kennel Club it has been in existence since 1873 – clearly they have had plenty of time to refine their system! Furthermore there are a number of practical implementation issues that need proper consideration before this can be put in place in a proper, detailed and consensual manner.

And we can take a lot from them

Through the discussions mentioned above a suggestion has been put forward as a first step in working towards the creation of a ‘Kennel Club equivalent’ that would provide the initial comfort to the hobby and the public concerning the quality of animals being sold, their care and propagation.

The current thinking is that such a ‘first step’ would manifest itself in the form of a voluntary association. This association would not require fees to be paid for membership – the only requirement of membership being a written commitment to follow the best practice/ethics code of the association. No formal constitution is being proposed but that it should be administered in the first instance by the membership.

It is further thought that such a ‘code’ should be basic in the sense of being clear, easily understood and not ‘steeped’ in bureaucracy.

In the first instance, it is felt that the Association should adopt the following:

Broadly agree with

Founding Principles
General Code of Ethics (conduct)

This would allow a test period (suggestions as to length of period are welcome!) to determine how many breeders ‘sign-up’ to these principles and ultimately inform the association of the need/desire to expand its mandate.

Suggestions for a ‘second stage’ have included the following:

Accredited Breeders
Offspring Registration
Sales Register (Not to sure if this is needed, but I do understand the need to be flexable within a register in order to keep it uptodate.)

This could potentially be a very interesting and exciting time for all of those in the hobby. We have the opportunity to ‘authenticate’ what we do, promote a wider understanding of what many perceive to be ‘creepy crawlies’ and to educate the wider community and help conservation.

This can be an extremely positive move that allows hobbyists to determine how such animals could be kept before arguably being legislated against by bureaucrats with no first hand experience or detailed knowledge.
Fully agree
It is felt that in promoting such an association we are under an obligation to advertise the fact as widely as possible. To this end the IHS, FBH, other related forum’s and the Pro-Keepers Lobby will be canvassed for their opinions.
Good idea, not so sure what the response would be from some quarters !

Outlined below are the proposed Founding Principles and Best Practice Guide referred to above.
Founding Principles
1. to promote responsible reptilia, amphibian and invert ownership (There would need to be a way of defining responsible before the group could promote it)
2. to enhance our understanding and relationship with our pets
3. to create a voluntary medium for keepers and breeders of all reptilia, amphibians and inverts to exchange information (Dont we have that already in the form of forums, or are we talking about data pertaining to breeding?)
4. to provide a best practice guide for the captive husbandry and breeding of these species (Huge problem here, how can that be achieved when its not agreed upon about simple things like substrates. Also knowledgeable keepers would be needed for all species, a mamoth task to say the least)
5. to provide a means for prospective and existing owners of these species to identify breeders who adopt the best practice guide
Yes, agreed in regards to whatever, a guide, practice, ethics etc
6. to provide objective information on species and cultivar specific issues including any empirical or scientific research that is being undertaken and to publish any findings
Super idea, one of the main reasons for looking at this in the first place
CODE of Best Practice
Husbandry

Owners will keep all species covered under the Founding Principles in conditions appropriate to the species in terms of housing, environment, dietary and hygiene needs

I understand that at this stage, it is not being suggested that these 'conditions' be laid down, but how and who are we to say if someone is not complying, what benchmarks can be used?

Owners will use appropriate quarantine procedures when dealing with new animals or sick animals (either medically diagnosed or suspected sick animals prior to diagnosis)

Again , in order to confirm what is appropriate, there will need to be a guide

Owners agree not to breed from a female in any way which is detrimental to the female or cultivar.

I would change this to be 'breed any animal'

Sale of Animals

Owners agree only to sell animals where there is a reasonable expectation of a happy and healthy life
Owners will offer help to re-home an animal if the initial circumstances change.
Owners will supply Care Sheets for each species of animal sold to include, as a minimum, housing, heating and dietary requirements and give guidance concerning responsible ownership when placing animals in a new home. I am aware that we all do this already, but would it be expected to be a standard care sheet, or those we use already?
Owners will provide any paperwork required by statute to the new owner. The owner will agree, in writing, to forward any relevant documents at the earliest opportunity, if not immediately available.

What kind of documents?

For captive bred animals, owners will provide details confirming that the animal being sold is produced from legally obtained parents and provide its parents’ details
Non captive bred animals should be stated as such and identified as being either wild caught or long term captive with details of where purchased and of any other history that the owner is aware
Owners will not knowingly misrepresent the characteristics of an animal nor falsely advertise or mislead any person regarding the quality of an animal
This code advocates providing as much other information as the owner considers necessary pertaining to the history of any animal being sold, for example (but not restricted to), its date of birth, feeding, shedding and weight records or ancestry

Sounds good

This code advocates that all owners adopt a returns policy and make such a policy available to buyers

An individual policy or a group poilicy? Again , in broad agreement, but needs to be clarified
Thank you for taking the time to read this post

So, my thoughts, not to be seen as an attack, but my own thoughts, for what its worth.

I belive it would be better to restrict the species involved in order to get it up and running. Once its working for one or two species, it can be enlarged.

I do belive that a group of people are needed to get this going, I understand that at this stage a committee is not possible, but once the thoughts of those interested are collected, a small group needs to put it together. Mass involvement will only lead to it failing I belive.

Once initial codes etc are in place, people can join, committee formed if needed, amendments and tweaks made.

At this stage I really dont think getting bogged down in best practice is the right way to go, its always an emotive subject. I feel it would be much better to focus on the reasons for all this and get that sorted first, then there will be a firm platform to enhance.

Diablo · #20 (**permalink**) 25-03-2008, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by purejurrasic

OK, I have had a good read, been bombarded with pm and emails and MSN !

I am aware that for whatever reason, my involvement is seen as laughable by some people, thats fine, everyone is permitted their own views.

Heres mine !

So, my thoughts, not to be seen as an attack, but my own thoughts, for what its worth.

I belive it would be better to restrict the species involved in order to get it up and running. Once its working for one or two species, it can be enlarged.

I do belive that a group of people are needed to get this going, I understand that at this stage a committee is not possible, but once the thoughts of those interested are collected, a small group needs to put it together. Mass involvement will only lead to it failing I belive.

Once initial codes etc are in place, people can join, committee formed if needed, amendments and tweaks made.

At this stage I really dont think getting bogged down in best practice is the right way to go, its always an emotive subject. I feel it would be much better to focus on the reasons for all this and get that sorted first, then there will be a firm platform to enhance.

HERE HERE

sorted

View Poll Results: Would be prepared to sign - up to the proposal in this thread?
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