Originally Posted by gtm

I agree - they can produce no evidence whatsoever to back up their dramatic claims. I bet we never see a full report. In the tortoise neck of the woods we seen something familiar from an outfit called the Tortoise Protection Group. I've read bits of their report but cannot bring myself to join their Yahoo group and so cannot access the whole of it.

They don't need to provide proof. The onus is on us to prove the appositive, and if we can't then they stand to win .


2 other points

1) What are the professional credentials of the good Dr Clifford? I note he is'nt a Veterinary Surgeon nor does he hold himself out as a Herpetologist or Zoologist. He has an impressive set of letters after his name. I wonder what they mean?

Again, we can all kick up over Clifford, but he has been accepted and supported by some of the most influential people in reptile care/medicine out there, including Professor Fredrick Frye, who hears and accepts and supports Clifford to the hilt. Professor Frye is mentor to almost all of the vets that we all rely on to look after our charges when they become sick, and those vets for the most, won't hear a bad word said against Professor Frye, who also said himself, that with all of his own knowledge he could not expect to keep a reptile alive for long, so the average keeper certainly could not be expected to.

2) The over heated hall point - They're reptiles for Gods sake. They're meant to be kept warm. I would be more concerned if the halls were underheated. What we find uncomfortably warm is actually pretty cosy for the average reptile.

Originally Posted by Athravan

I think that most reptile keepers would agree that the conditions in which the animals are kept at shows are not perfect for all species. Although for most snakes, corn snakes for example - the hatchlings at shows are kept in exactly the same tubs I keep them in at home, the only difference is that there is no water bowl, which a corn snake can survive 8 hours without discomfort. The housing is temporary and should be looked at as temporary.

Athravan,

Whilst I don't wish to appear to be being awkward here, I feel compelled to try to verify what you have said above. You say the housing is only temporary, but yet in another sentence you say you keep your corn snakes in these temporary boxes at home too, or at least thats the way you are coming across, and that's what others will read into it. As for hatchling corns going without water for 8 hours, well in some cases that would be okay, but on a very hot summer day, they could well dehydrate. Could you please state which type of boxes you are referring to here, because as it stands, some will assume you are referring to cricket type boxes.

If anything, my problem is more with the buyers than the sellers. I don't like hearing of people driving 10-15 hours+ home without offering water or checking on the animals and being suprised when they end up dead at the other end. Stress+fluctuating temperatures+dehydration+12+ hours constantly travelling = danger, it's not rocket science. Decrease the stress, don't overcrowd, stabilise the temperatures by actually using a thermometer to check how many heat packs/ventilation holes are needed in advance, and provide water, pretty simple.

100% agree with the above comments.

All of the animals I buy are offered water in the evening, and the next morning... so twice on the return journey of about 14 hours, and checked 3 times for any problems. I check the temps on the way out using a digital thermometer and some heat packs so I can accurately gauge what will be needed, and I've never had an animal die yet. The thermometer can be checked at every rest stop (so at least every 2 hours) and the temps adjusted accordingly if it's changed too much.

Nice one.

If I was gestulating wildly with my own (no facts based) propoganda I would put forth that more animals die in transit than at the show itself.

I could go with that too.

The main issues with this piece of propoganda is that they are not really focusing on facts of discomfort, people are missing the point... in saying this is a piece of propoganda I am not saying I advocate the condition of shows... there is always room for improvement, but.. neither can it be said that animals are mostly WC and the UK is full of these WC German imports... they could have had an interesting and truthful article if they had focused on more facts and figures of the truth in their "investigation", instead they have a randomly speculative piece of fluff in which you can disregard pretty much everything... as they clearly didn't do any correct research or a proper "investigation" or they would have provided more correct information and actually hit home with the one truthful aspect they have.

Originally Posted by gaz

are we forgetting that all shows are inspected by vets before they open? they dont seem to have any problem with things as they are
regards gaz