Dear All,

There has been some constructive debate regards to ‘shows’ after the attack on the Hamm event by a well know Animal Rights Activist. Whilst this ‘gentleman’s’ unintelligible drivel can safely be dismissed, there have been some constructive comments made from others.

The FBH drafted a Code of Practice for shows back in 2002, see below. It is time this document was reviewed and I would welcome constructive comments and suggestions. Please feel free to post this on other forums. This document will then be taken forward to be considered for the formal Code of Practice for shows under the Animal Welfare Act, so now id your opportunity to have a say on what is important to you.






October 2002


The Aims

The purposes of this Code of Practice are:

• To promote responsible ownership of reptiles and amphibians.
• To increase awareness of welfare issues.
• To better educate both staff and customers.
• To simplify complaints procedure and provide a conciliation service.

1. These rules apply to all members with animals for sale. Traders (who are NOT permitted to sell livestock) and members attending the event as either full FBH members or as members of an affiliated society.

2. Membership to affiliated society or the FBH must be proved for admittance either as a Trader/seller or as a visitor. This must be a current FBH membership card or a current affiliated Society membership card.

3. There is also no admittance to children under 16 unless accompanied by an adult who will be responsible for their conduct. Finally, there is no admittance to members of non-affiliated organisations.

4. All Traders/Societies must display at all times their contact details (name & telephone number) and stand numbers.

5. Traders will be classed as: anyone who normally trades (does business) under an EHA pet shop licence whether from a place of business or private dwelling or is VAT registered in the business of selling livestock.

6. All animals must be healthy & housed singly in appropriately sized, clean containers. Lighting and/or heating to be provided as necessary. Housing deemed unsuitable by the FBH or Show Organisers must be removed from display.

7. No smoking is permitted in the hall at any time.

8. No food to be consumed in the hall.

9. Members must ensure that a care sheet should be available for ALL livestock sold. Receipts may be issued; if the Show Organisers request this then all sellers must comply.

10. All animals offered for sale must be in a satisfactory condition.

11. No sales to under 16s.

12. The following animals must not be offered for sale or displayed

13. Anything covered by the Dangerous Wild Animals Act, unless the venue is licensed for these purposes.

13.1.1.Any species deemed unsuitable by the Show Organisers.

13.1.2.These species will be listed in a supplementary rules list.

14. Nobody is to walk about the venue with animals unless they are in a bag or suitable container. No handling of animals will be permitted except at point of sale. No children under 5 years are to handle any animal.

15. Any CITES species sold must be accompanied by the relevant documentation where appropriate.

16. No live mammals to be sold or displayed in the same room as reptiles.

17. The FBH or Show Organisers accepts no responsibility for any loss or damage no matter how caused.

18. Cameras only allowed with prior permission.

19. No unauthorised sub-letting of tables.

20. Antiseptic handwipes must be available on every table displaying/selling livestock.


ANY FAILURE TO ADHERE TO THESE RULES WILL LEAD TO EXPULSION FROM THE SHOW.

I like those rules
There is only one thing i have to ask
why is it a members only admissions?
Does this mean as im not a member of the FBH i wouldnt be able to go to the show?

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Sounds good to me Chris mate.

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I like the look of these rule everyone should use them
it shows good practice for the welfare of the animals

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Sue

These are the two rules I feel could do with being most expanded upon - and you must admit these are the ones that cause the most ill-feeling when shows are discussed. One person's idea of an animal in a "satisfactory" condition in an "appropriately sized" container is someone else's idea of an ill tortoise in a box he can't turn round in.

I disagree with using the word "satisfactory", as it's so vague. Surely we should be striving for excellence in all that we do - all animals offered for sale I feel should appear to be in excellent condition and health.

My personal opinions ...

Everything needs to be established. A minimum size/age for geckos. Snakes should be well started and have had X number of feeds unassisted and have shed Y number of times before being offered for sale at a show.

All animals must have access to water or moist food during the show. Where appropriate, they should have access to food.

Tub sizes must be suitable for the animal (and for lizards - that means enough space to at least turn around in) and include a hide or dark area for the animal to retreat to.

Appropriate temperatures must be provides. This can be a thermostatted heat mat, or cooling packs. If an area of the hall becomes too hot, then the organisers must immediately take action to relocate any sellers located in that area.

All animals must be sold with care sheets and appropriate guidance must be given to purchasers, even if they insist they already know! Details on what the animal is feeding on should be provided, and in the case of snakes feeding and shedding records should be recommended.

A system such as some pet shops use (coast to coast and snakes n adders stick out to me) where care sheets/sales sheets must be signed by both parties and retained would be ideal to ensure this is stuck to.

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Hi all,

I have no problem with the above rules and regulations.



slither61

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Member No 2300

I have copied and pasted one of my posts from another thread as it covers the discussion here as well.


As much as I don't like reading your opening sentence Chris, I have to be honest and thus agree fully with you there, even if it hurts. OUCH. LOL. Well, I am all of those things anyway.

Put the way you have Chris, which is why you are where you are today, we are not disagreeing at all.

Now I suggest you get yourself a drink, and be prepared for a long rant.


The problem would be implementing the above. Both you and I know that though Mary/John will give all of their charges the extra loving care in order to ensure that when it comes to the time of sale their snakes/lizards will cope with the change over, even if it means no feeding straight away as they will have had a very good start in life, where as Fred/Alice will have wanted to cut out the work factor involved, and thus clear the hatchlings out quickly, saving the work load and possible problems of being stuck with non-feeders. I have lost count of the amount of non-feeders, or bad doers that have been sold at shows, and have had to pick up the pieces for many by taking such animals on until they are in fact an established feeder. This problem in my opinion is made worse by those same people having bred their adults too early in some cases, and then gone on to hatch much weaker and more reluctant to feed baby snakes.

To an experienced eye a lot of the problems can be spotted and could be acted on at the time, but even when I personally have drawn the show holders attention to such things, it has been ignored. I complained about boxes stacked on top of each other at a couple of shows too, and were being knocked over by people crowding round the tables. That should never have been allowed in the first instance. That was ignored too. As said in another post, if you have x amount of amel corns for sale, why the need to have them all on the table top at once. You only need a few at most, of both sexes if you have them. The others could be left where they feel more secure until the first have sold.

When it comes to the water issue, I agree with you that on condition the hall temps are not above the comfortable range for said species , then even the hatchlings could cope well for those amount of hours, BUT, and as you see it is a BIG BUT, are we talking about just those hours? I question that strongly owing to the fact of the amount of reptiles brought to the shows by many, and the distance they have had to travel with the animals, and what containers they have them in at the time. You and I have been around as you say long enough to know for a fact Chris, that John/Mary or Fred/Alice has for example many hours drive ahead of them and an early start, so the norm would be to have everything packed up by very early evening the day before, and then worn out take themselves to bed and up early and on the road as fast as they can, arriving at the show in time to set up just before the public start arriving so how long now have those same hatchings for example been without water now Chris? Most shows are in the summer too, and with the stress levels at their highest, I can easily see that many of those reptiles will be requiring water after all. It also does not help when some show organizers decide to stick exhibitors with livestocks directly under glass roofs with the midday sun pouring in on them. These sort of issues need some very careful thought if the welfare of the animals is to be upheld.

Can you ever be sure that the above has not occurred Chris? If not then is it not better to err on the side of caution, and perhaps insist that at some time during the day that all exhibitors take the time out to give all of their charges the chance of a few slips of water at least?

I also feel that with hatchling snakes and lizards, they should not be allowed to sit on the tables in those flimsy (totally see through from every angle) cricket boxes, or be sold in them, as to me that is a cheap and crude way of housing them, plus they are too small even for the smallest of hatchling snakes, which do need to be given the choice of hiding or moving to different areas of their enclosure in comfort. Even if brought new and correct non-damaging holes are made in them by the sellers, they still bend and push in too easily to be considered as suitable protection for the babies inside of them, and it encourages buyers to sometimes keep them in them when back at home. Lets see more time and effort put into the care of creatures that we have brought into this world that are helpless themselves and thus relying on a responsible keeper for their welfare. Most buyers should if they care about the animal they are buying be willing to pay an added cost of a proper size box for the hatchling. Always a sensible move too, if it's the one the hatchling feels safe in, and is feeding well from already, as that is half the battle won already for the new owner. For those that object, surely this could be explained to them, and if they still object then, I personally would turn them away for obvious reasons.

Having just glanced at the FBH rules on the other thread, they are good, BUT I go fully with Toyla on the 2 rules she has mentioned. The sooner these rules are in place the better all round. Perhaps I could then go to a show and enjoy it for a change instead of fretting over this and that animal, and being ignored when I mention it because I am just a silly old woman.

With regards to ages of hatchlings, well I firmly believe that in order to be able to withstand the challenges ahead of them, often in beginners hands, that all lizard hatchlings should be 3 months, taking into account the fact the mortality rate for lizards is at it's highest for the first 6 months of their lives, and all hatchling snakes should have had around the 5 feeds which must include a second shed and another feed directly after that shed. I have never counted the first shed which they go into from almost straight out of the egg anyway. I also base it on the amount that have fed up until the first shed then refused after the shed. That in the past has sometimes been indicative of an internal problem of some sort, so again better to wait and be sure.

Now I do know of some breeders that already adhere to the above, and I have also heard moans about the fact that their prices are too high, and it seems that the buyer would rather pay less for a younger and thus more fragile animal then pay the extra, which I might add won't be extra in the long run, and might in fact be a huge saving both in time and money, and the live of the said hatchling, so if they care about animal welfare, more than trying to get that bargain, then perhaps we can all hold our heads up and be able to say that 'Animal Welfare matters to us' and we are proving it by our actions.

The days of breeders getting shot of the fragile and the non-feeders first, should be at an end full stop. If they can't cope with doing the right thing by the creatures that they helped bring into the world, then it's time they stopped breeding and went on to do something else as their hearts are in to.

Rant over for now.

Mo.

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"If you talk with the animals they will talk with you and you will know each other. If you do not talk to them, you will not know them and what you do not know, you will fear. What one fears, one destroys."
Chief Dan George (1899-1981)

You mention CITES paperwork Chris but now with EPS legislation as it is you should probably add that too. Maybe add tubs to have opaque sides and clear lids and to be on a single level not stacked up at all.

I was discussing my displeasure at large boids reappearing at some shows on another thread and we concluded that it would be good if the seller gave a basic questionnaire to the prospective buyer to guage wether they know about the species. Doesn't have to be massive but hopefully it should weed out those buying burmese not knowing what they're getting themselves into. I think this should be done with the sale of monitors also tbh, especially the larger species like Niles/salvators etc. I just don't want to see a repeat of an incident where someone walked into a show, bought a burm and went to a shop the next day saying "I bought this at the show yesterday - what is it and how do I look after it".

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I have a question.. if this was drafted in 2002, was it made aware to organisations in 2002?

I went to 5 shows in the UK last year. At every single one of these 5 shows key points on the above list were clearly broken.

No caresheets, Very few tables displayed a persons name, let alone phone number. Very few antiseptic available. Copious amounts of food/drink being consumed, at two shows, food was being prepared (sandwiches) and handed out, and left open, behind tables. As for subletting, I don't think anyone realised that one as at several shows there were people openly discussing "sharing" of tables... or is it only subletting if a fee is made? Many people advertised that they could "leave animals on a friends table" at a show.

If in the last 6 years these rules have been completely ignored anyway... surely the issue is not going to be how correct these rules are (spot on in my opinion), but how to "encourage" organisers to actually enforce them?

The only rules I would add are

1. Animals must not be sold before they are self sustaining.

(In the case of mammals this would be weaned, in the case of reptiles it is debateable, but certainly, this would eliminate snakes that have never fed, day old reptiles and the like - the council does set this rule for pet shops also)

2. Animals must be housed in individual containers.

(I personally was not happy to see some 30 corn snakes in a small cramped container and one being plucked out at random for the sale)

3. There should be no sales made if you do not have a table.

Last year I know that there were a lot of problems because some show organisers did not make this clear, and others went super overboard on it... I think it would be more simple for everyone if it was clarified in a code of conduct.

I also don't know if it needs clarification, but, breeders meetings are legal as just that, breeders meetings. Last time I spoke to the council (late last year) they were quite specific that "breeders may only sell animals bred by themselves or surplus breeding stock". Yet at the majority of shows, you see a whole hodgepodge of sales that are nothing to do with breeding. They are certainly surplus stock, but not breeding stock, never been bred and unlikely to be bred, with a few tables that I saw selling WC/Imported animals.. Will that ever be enforced or will people be able to argue that anything they own is potentially breeding stock and therefore fine?

My main concern, as I said above, would not be the actual code itself but enforcing it... if it has existed in previous years, it has certainly been blatantly ignored by all the shows I have attended (which is most of them!)

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Brilliant post in my opinion Athraven.

I agreed with most of your raised points before too on another thread. It would appear that other than the use of the cricket boxes we concur on just about everything else.

Mo.

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"If you talk with the animals they will talk with you and you will know each other. If you do not talk to them, you will not know them and what you do not know, you will fear. What one fears, one destroys."
Chief Dan George (1899-1981)